Ancient Christian Witness

This is a repost of a thread from a board that got deleted. I salvaged what I could.

Streetsermons asked:

http://streetsermonz.blogspot.com/

"A few weeks ago I heard an Elder whom I highly respect teach that it is
possible to lose your salvation. I personally believe that once God saves you,
you are sealed to the day of redemption and your name cannot be erased from the
Lamb's book of life. However, I wanted to start this thread and ask for Biblical
support of BOTH points of view. I assume most on this board believe once saved
always saved - and if you fall away you were never saved to begin with, as I
believe. Before I get into an in depth study I wanted to build with my fam on
the board and see what points you may have, backed up by the Word of course."

Doc spot added


1 John 3 ESV

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is
lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is
no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning
has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you.
Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

Doc Spot continued to say:
The KJV says that you cannot sin if you're born of God. There have been times that i gave my flesh an inch and it took a couple of light years from my walk, but i never turned back completely as the Bible says as a dog to his own vomit. From experience i can tell you that you can be under the misconception that you're saved because you have faith in God or you believe in God, His virgin birth, death, and ressurection. i'm speaking from personal experience that I spoke in tongues and was "slain in the spirit" as a unbeliever. i had a form of godliness (2 Tim 3)

No matter what statement of faith you take

No matter what superstar or backwoods pastor gave you the sinner's prayer

No matter how different you felt after hearing that song

You have to be born again. You have to be born of God. (John 3, I Peter 1)

In my observation of the churches of today and type of preaching that is done i've noticed these that speaking of salvation as being something you have to worked out is not popular (Phil 2).

So my answer is No you cannot lose your salvation. The desire should be knowing if you are.


Phat Catholic said:

"StreetSermonz....you may be interested in two posts I made in a thread from a while back. The first one (here) lists scripture passages that speak against OSAS. The second post (here) is my response to someone who didn't agree with the passages that I listed.I hope that helps.Pax Christi,phatcatholic"

The links won't work for the Theoboard was taken down. I assume he said the samething in his blog

the link to Phat's blog is

http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/



The Black Calvinist(who also goes by the name G.R.A.C.E. Preacha) said:

There really aren't any passages that say you can lose your salvation.

The problem is, most people who approach the Bible don't do so covenantally, so they misinterpret warning passages (which are real) as referring to only believers, when in fact, they are speaking to the visible community of faith, which is a mixed group (believers and unbelievers). The warning passages hold true for those who 'fall away' (seed that falls on the stony ground, sprouts up for a while, has no root in itself, eventually whithers), while they also serve as part of the means which God uses to keep those in the sheepfold persevering in faith (1 Peter 1:5, John 10:27-29).

'No one' includes you

The rest of folks who approach from some sort of covenantal framework but believe a true believer can lose their salvation, usually go to the other extreme and deny obvious passages like the last 2 listed. If the scriptures say 'no one' can snatch you out of God's hand, no one includes you. If the scrips say that true believers are kept by the power of God, then it can't be by your own strength and good deeds that you are 'staying saved'. Kept by God doesn't mean kept by God and me.

His website is

http://theologicallycorrect.com/



Streetsermons responded to black Calvinist:

"word, great points Doc and Kerry. My thoughts exactly. As you might suspect, Hebrews 6:4-6 was used - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.""

Another point I heard is that if God is going to spew out the lukewarm saints out of His mouth, that means they were part of the Body. My point was, just because they are part of the physical body of Christ, doesn't mean they are part of the spiritual body and are saved. Many people will do signs and wonders, preach and teach, and even evangelize in the Name of Jesus, but that doesn't mean they are saved.

Also, if you are saved by grace and not by works, is it possible for a work to take away that salvation and bring you back into condemnation?Any other scriptural points?


shekinahsmoke said:

Ask Charo Washer.



I said:

One of the Arminian blog's I chat at was talking about this a couple months ago.

http://arminianperspectives.blogspot.com/


or to my blog
http://ancientchristiandefender.blog...chapter-6.html/

I edited my post for I originally gave three links. I gave two on here for one of the links was from the theoboard.


Black Calvinist's responce to my post:

Or.... you can just read your Bible.

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. (Hebrews 6:9, emphasis mine).The things mentioned in vv. 4-6 don't belong to salvation.Case proven. The Bible is its' own best interpreter.....

The problem is that some folks don't read more than a few verses and try to misformulate doctrine off of it.



My responce to Blackcalvinist:

The things that belong to salvation is "perseverence".

Meaning a continuance in all the things mentioned in verses 4-5 plus other things.

Hebrews 6:10

"10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have
shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want
each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your
hope sure."

Hebrews chapter 10 seems to be saying the samething

"23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is
faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and
good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of
doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day
approaching."

What was started in Hebrews chapter 6 verses 4-5 must last to the very end.



Ras said:

I haven't read any of the responses but I will next. But looking at Jesus' parables(Mark 4, Matt. 13?), I believe the Holy Spirit can work in a non believer (which we call fruit). But a true believer will continue to transfer into Christ image. And that spiritual growth differs from person to person (30, 60, 100)

Look at the parable of the sower, Mark 4. There was fruit (belief) and some growth. But when tribulation came, it proved they were not his. A believer will continue to grow despite tribulation. I think some sides just fail to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit can work in unsaved people. And bring growth. But a truly saved or as a tulip people like to use elected person will continue to grow.


RAS posted again:

"I believe in once elected always elected. But at the same time I do believe the Holy Spirit can work in the life of a non believer, which may appear that a person has lost their salvation. I've seen many people show spiritual fruit (and I don't believe that in all of them that this was their work to change themselves. In some cases it is human effort.)"


BlackCalvinist responded to RAS:

Exactly. Except, the unbeliever in these passages (matthew 13) doesn't bring forth FRUIT....he brings forth FOLIAGE (leaves....).

Think of it this way.... we see things growing out of a tree, we think "Oh, the tree is alive". Both leaves AND fruit grow out of a tree. But the unfruitful tree is not saved in any of these passages.

Speaking of trees (and I knew this would come in handy one day), my ex had a tree growing outside of her home. She and I started dating back in the late fall (right after Thanksgiving of 05'). Well, when the Spring hit, we started noticing leaves coming in on the other trees....except for this one.

Even some of the other 'slower' trees finally had a few shoots.

Nothing from "deadtree" as we called it.

Eventually, the HOA called it in and had it chopped and made into mulch.


"Deadtree" had grown pretty large. Apparently, it had leaves in the past (in fact, I remember leaves on it from the previous year). A few birds even made their home in it (as evidenced by the bird poop on my car many of the times I visited). Looked just like every other tree. Branches. I even saw the 'buds' where leaves were supposed to start growing in.

Spring cames, leaves never came. Early summer came, leaves never came.

Phil. 2:12-13 make it clear - we work because God works in us. We persevere because God keeps us and enables us to do so.

Not a hard issue.

Problem is, people make it a hard issue when they have issues with the concept of anyone else but themselves being the final determiner of their salvation (people either deny the exhaustive foreknowledge of God, make salvation dependent on something we would do in a hypothetical future, limit God, deny God's ability to keep folks, say that God values human free will above His own desire to save people, etc.....).

As complicated as some of these discussions get, they're really simple. It's when people choose to disbelieve for whatever reason, that it becomes a complicated issue.

Any child can understand "God keeps me from falling away from Him and gives me strength to stay with Him, He's changed my desires so that I now love good and hate evil and He's made it so I won't turn from Him (1 Peter 1, Phil. 2 and Jeremiah 32:40 respectively)".

The issue gets complicated when we begin to make excuses for our friends who may have 'spoke in tongues' beside us and we just KNEW they were Christians....now they claim atheism or something....

May the Lord continue to enlighten the eyes of His people to see more truth in this area.
Grace.



RAS responded back to Black Calvinist:

that's dope with the follage, leaves stuff. Never heard that before.




I responded with:


What about a tree that bore fruit and stopped? This is where the real disagreement is anyway.

John 15:6"

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries
up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are
burned."

So what about those who once "produced fruit" then stopped?



Rob said:


Please don't forget about the parable Jesus spoke of in Luke 12:42-48. Please consider verse 46. The Greek word for "servant" in this passage is indeed "duolos", check your lexicon. We can't say this was a servant who never was a servant.

Luke 12:42-48

42And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his
lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in
due season?
43Blessed is that servant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so
doing.
44In truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he
hath.

45But if that servant say in his heart, `My lord delayeth his coming,' and
shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be
drunken,

46the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder and will appoint
him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, who knew his lord's will and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not and committed things worthy of stripes, shall be
beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be
required; and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more.

RAS responed to me with:

"where does it say that they once produced fruit?"


Doc spot said:

It's speaking of dry branches not fruit. Dry wood burns better.


Black Calvinist responded to Rob with:

"Covenantally, all of Israel were servants of God, but all of Israel weren't saved, nor were they all considered to be saved. Servant doesn't denote salvation. It denotes covenant relationship and covenant responsibility, but not salvation. This goes back to the first convo we had on this topic when I asked you what a covenant was.....If a person gets 'covenant' wrong, they'll misread a lot of scripture....."


Street sermons asked another question:


"have another point.In Jesus' parable about the 10 virgins, 5 stored up oil and were prepared for the LORD's coming, the other 5 weren't. All 10 were described as virgins - living holy lives. Only 5 actually obeyed the Master's command (stored up oil) - the other 5 procrastinated, and when it came time to enter into the joy of the LORD, only those that were prepared were allowed in. So it seems as if we do have a choice. This goes back to a question of much debate on this board - is our freewill greater than God's sovereignity? It is obvious that we can only obtain our salvation by faith. We can only persevere by faith. Faith is a gift. So does God force His salvation upon us and therefore keep us? Or does He give us the opportunity to put the faith He gave us into action, and if we don't exercise that faith we won't receive the promise of eternal life? Would the latter then make faith a work?
(Vic PLEASE dont' erase this thread...)"



Black Calvinist responded to Streetsermon with:

Well, first I'd challenge your understanding of what the whole meaning of the virgins represents in this passage.

Jeremiah 32:40.

If faith is a gift, it's not something you do OR maintain.

Of course, if understood covenantally, it's not a major problem. All of the virgins were servants. They all had the same covenant responsibilities (get oil for your lamps). Five chose to, five did not. The result was the curses of the covenant falling upon those who disobeyed (the foolish virgins) and the blessings of the covenant falling upon those who obeyed (the wise ones).

This passage doesn't deal with regeneration, election, predestination or directly with perseverance. It deals with the responsibilities of the visible (covenant) people of God toward Him and the results of their disobedience.

Remember - the visible church (covenant people of God) is a mixed multitude - believers and non-believers (see Matt. 13 for the parable of the tares and the wheat). They will be separated at the end of time, but for now, both live up and grow up together.

If faith is a gift, it's not something you do OR maintain.



I responded back to RAS with

It is implied in alot of places.

Revelation 2:3-5

"3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown
weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you
did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand
from its place."

These christians did persevere, and endured hardships in Jesus Name, yet they have forsaken their first love. Jesus told them to repent or else He would remove their lampstand from them.

We know from scripture that God will enforce His warnings. As seen from Genesis 2:17

Genesis 2:17

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

It is also implied in Galatians


Galatians 5:3-5

"3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be
circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to
be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from
grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for
which we hope."

if they never produced fruit before then why would Paul say they "were running a good race"?

Galatians 5:7

"You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept
you from obeying the truth?"

I would like to ask you a question. Are the fruits of the Spirit visible in a persons life?



Shortly after I posted this the whole theo board was shut down. I answered some of the other comments on other posts in my blog.




JNORM888