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Friday, December 21, 2007

My response to Saint and sinner at triablogue

to saint and sinner

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/12/metaphysics-of-freewill.html

And where did Augustine get it?



He got it through multiple false revelations of scripture.
Just like in 1914 the oneness pentecostals began with a false revelation of scripture.
The BIBle tells us to test the spirits and Augustine never did that.
Instead of holding on to the Faith that was handed to the Saints! He invented his own teaching.
It wouldn't be called Augustinianism if it didn't come from him
.


"He said that he derived it from Scripture despite the previous tradition. I think that we could admit that Augustine was a great theologian and that we were influenced by him simply because he made great points."


He had a couple revelations that changed what he believed. And those new ideas were against what the Christian Faith always believed and past down.
Augustine may be seen as a great theologian in the western Church, but he is seen as a man with alot of theological errors in the Eastern Church.
You were influenced by him because Both Luther and Calvin tried to go back to some of his harder teachings that were rightly discarded by the Western Church.



"Of course, we would say that early Christianity was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy as Alister McGrath has pointed out."




Early christianity was not heavily influenced by Greek Philosophy....no more than Saint John was by Philo.

If you read Philo(a Jewish greek philosopher) and the Gospel of John you will see how John relied on Philo.

Was it a heavy influence? No! But his ussage of "Logos" is similar to Philo's.

Saint Paul was also influenced by Greek Philosophy. Now was he heavily influenced by it? NO! But he did use it for the good of the Church.

Some Early Christians used Greek Philosophy the same way Saint John and Paul did.

You have Saint Justin Martrye, Clement of Alexandria (who is not called a Saint by the Orthodox)

And Origen (who was declared heretical in the 6th century)

Most of the Early Christians were Against Greek Philosophy.

"Great is the error that the philosophers among them have brought upon their followers."
Aristides (125 A.D.)

"One of the Philosophers asserts that God is body, but I assert that He is without body. One of the philosophers asserts that the World is indestructible, but I say that it is to be destroyed."
Tatian (160A.D.)

"But now it seems proper for me to demonstrate that our philosophy is older than the systems of the Greeks."
Tatian (160A.D.)


Tatian didn't seem to be "heavily influenced" by greek philosophy.


"Heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy."
Tertullian 197 A.D.)

"[The philosophers] knocked at the door of truth. But they did not enter." Tertullian 210 A.D.

"The Philosophers are the Patriarchs of all heresy."
Tertullian (200 A.D.)

Tertullian seemed to be against Greek Philosophy.


"It has been handed down to us in the sacred writings that the thoughts of the Philosophers are foolish....Therefore, there is no reason why we should give so much honor to philosophers."
Lactantius (304A.D. to 313A.D.)

Lactantius was the school teacher of Constantine's son and he didn't seem to be heavily influenced by Greek Philosophy.

Also Origen....who was influenced by Jewish Greek Philosophy had this to say about the issue.


"We testify of certain Greek philosophers that they knew God, seeing "He manifested Himself to them," although "they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful, but became vain in their imaginations; and professing themselves to be wise, they became foolish." Origen (248 A.D.)


Also Clemant of Alexandria who also was influenced by Greek Philosophy had this to say about it.

"Well, be it so that "the thieves and robbers" are the philosophies among the greeks, who before the coming of the Lord received fragments of the truth from the Hebrews prophets. They claimed these as their own teachings, without complete understanding of them."
Clement of Alexandria (195 A.D.)


Most of the ones who were influenced by Greek Philosophy tried to use it to help convert the Greeks to Christianity.

But most of the early christians rejected Greek Philosophy.



Whatever you got from Alister McGrath in regards to this issue was wrong. I been reading the ECF's for 9 to 10 years now.

So I know what they had to say about the issue. And I've been reading them mostly in my protestant years.

If anything it was Augustine who was heavily influenced by Plato and John Calvin who was influenced by Aristotlian logic.

So the Greek Philosophy finger pointing can go both ways! If you didn't know.....the greek Philosophers were all over the place in regards to the issue of "Free will". Many were Determinists!!!!




"So, I would suggest that we each argue our points from Scripture to decide between the two positions."



Nope! I will argue with every tool. When the Arians couldn't get anywhere from Church history, They wanted to only argue their point from scripture as well.

We will look at both scripture and history for I can't have you using the BIBLE as a smoke screen for your theology.




Where's your argument?




It will come in time.





JNORM888

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