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Tuesday, June 3, 2008

IS YHWH God the Father or the Trinity

Originally Posted by the answer

IS YHWH God the father or the

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It depends on the context. If we are talking about Essence then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit would be called YHWH.

If we are talking about Personas then we would call the Father God, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Spirit.

(As seen from both scripture as well as from some of the writings of the Early Christians)

So it all depends on the context.

The Eastern Christian understanding of things is a bit different from the Western Protestant one. I can't speak for Rome for I don't have a clue what she believes (in modern times) about this issue.

I ussually know what she believes, but I must admit, in regards to this issue I am unsure.

But as far as the East goes.....I would say:

1.) The Father is the only unbegotten YHWH

2.) The Son is the Only begotten YHWH

3.) The Spirit is YHWH who proceeds from the only unbegotten YHWH

The Christian East believes that only the Father has "asiety". To us, the idea of each person having asiety means tri-theism or three eternal separate gods. To us, "Asiety" is linked to the ideas of "independance", "division", "autonomy".

Now with this said.....only some in the west believe that each person has asiety. Most in the west don't believe that.

The Eastern mind may think differently than the western mind, when it comes to unity. In the east, Union means that we have to be linked together. If the Son & Holy Spirit are always linked to the Father then it's easy to understand God being one and undivided. But I don't know what Rome believes so the West might believe just like the East in regards to "being linked" I'm trying not to generalize the west....for it may have more than one view. I know that it sometimes look as if it has modalistic/Sebellian tendencies, but I need to find out more about the modern western system/systems.

so with that said:

The Son is YHWH because He is eternally begotten from the Unbegotten YHWH. Before creation we view it as an Internal begetting within the bosom of the Unbegotten YHWH.

When the Son was sent by the Father to create all things, then we see it as an External begetting from the Father.

And this is why it is said that the Father created all things through the Son.

And the reason why the East believes in One God is because both the Son and Holy Spirit are literally(in a spiritual sense, because God is Spirit) undivided from the Father.

They are literaly(in a spiritual sense, because God is Spirit) connected to Him. And we see it as being that way in all eternity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit always existed because the Son was always begotten from the Father, and the Holy Spirit was always proceeding from the Father.

That is how the East views it. So it all depends on the context

Also, I would like to add....

Since every doctrine is related to another....or is influenced by another doctrine. I would like to talk about Panentheism, and some of the Attributes of God in regards to the Trinity.

When the Father sent the Son to create all things visible and invisible (creation), all things exist within the Son. And since the Son is of the Father's Being, one could say that "all things" exist within the Father. And since the Holy Spirit is also of the Father's Being, one could say that "all things" exist within the Holy Spirit.

And this is how we understand Panentheism. Everything that exist......exists in God's Presence.

And since both the Son and Holy Spirit share the Father's Being, it is ok to call them both YHWH.

And in regards to the Attributes of God, one can see a small glimpse of how it is possible for God to know all things, be everywhere, and power everything.........when everything exist in His Presence/Being.

This is why I look at the differences in one's walk with God as a matter of "degree". Everything to me is pretty much looked at that way.

The deeper one goes in the Ocean, the greater the water pressure.....likewise, the deeper one's walk is with God, the greater His Presence pressure is. And if His Presence is greater in you than so is His power, intimate knowledge, and well as any other Attributes that I missed.

My views of free will, Predestination, God's Providence, and almost everything else I believe in......can be derived from God's Omni-Presence......OMNI-BEING

If everything exist in God's Presence, then God ordains everything. However, the way I understand that is different from both King Neb & SEAL. (two friends who are Strong Monergistic high Calvinists)

Since I am a pure Synergist, I believe certain parts of our make Moral Agents allow us to constantly wrestle with God. While Other parts of our make up is automatic.....and thus, we have no control over those parts...They are irresistible, but some parts of our make up allows us to ressist.

And it is this part of our make up which allows us to wrestle with our Creator from our conception in the womb to the grave in our caskets.



Adam Pastor said...


You answered "It depends on the context."

I would say in answer to the question
"IS YHWH God the Father or the Trinity"?

That there is only one clear answer.
YHWH is GOD the Father,
the only true GOD.

(1 Cor 8:4) ... that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, ...

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The fact is, that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples ever taught this unknown concept of the trinity.

To the Jews including the Jewish Messiah; there is solely ONE GOD.
The Jews confirm this monotheism daily (even to this day) in their confession of the Shema, Deut 6.4.

When the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, was asked what was the greatest of the commandments? :-

(Mark 12:28-32) ... Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. ...

Note the scribe's response:
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

It should be obvious then;
that neither Christ nor the scribe are trinitarian!

So Christ as well as every other Jew of his era, believed in solely ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father;
who is ONE Being, ONE Person.

Christ identifies the ONE GOD as the Father and calls Him,
the only true GOD.
[John 17.3]

So irrespective of the Western & Eastern minds; what matters is the mind of Christ!

And the Messiah solely believed in ONE GOD, the Father; who is his GOD!
YHWH, God the Father,
is the God and Father
of our Lord Jesus Christ!!

[Rom 15.6, 2 Cor 11.31, Eph 1.3,17; Col 1.3, 1 Pet 1.3]

(John 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Rev 3:12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Therefore, JNORM888,
I highly recommend this video:
The Human Jesus

Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you to reconsider "The Trinity"

Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor

Jnorm said...

Adam Pastor,

I'm sorry for not posting right away. I saw your comment yesturday, or maybe the day before.

but anyway, I would like to say greetings. I see you like this topic alot.

Well, maybe we could take a bite at this issue bit by bit. Concept by concept.

However, I'm going to let it be known from the very beginning, that I'm not gonna change my mind about this issue. Now in saying this, you might be a little upset, and I understand that, but this is an essential christian doctrine. Something I have been challenged on before in the past, and looked at. I have no doubts about this doctrine. And I pray that our dialogue will help you see some connections that you haven't seen before.

I'm sorry, but I was just rolling my eyes when you said:

Adam pastor said:
"So irrespective of the Western & Eastern minds; what matters is the mind of Christ!"

It's so anachronistic of you to say such a thing. You are unkwowingly (or maybe knowingly) reading a modern western psuedo-protestant perspective into the text. A 19nth century reading into scripture.

You need to understand that Jesus is of the same Being of the Father. The Son Shares the Father's Being.

Once you understand this, then most of what you had to say falls to the ground.

Thanks for posting.


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