Ancient Christian Witness

A going back and forth between me, Shaun(Eternal) a church of God pastor, and Jason Bradfield(KingNeb) a full-preterist.

This comes from the HolyCultureRadio Forums.





Quote: (Kingneb)

---

I post the following here as a response to accusations from Seal, Rick, and others that if preterism is true, this would somehow make the apostles incompetent teachers. I wrote this almost two years ago. Keep in mind that in this article, i am articulating scripturalism as taught by men like Gordon Clark and a late Augustine. Roderick has already made known his incompetency with Clark's material, something even Rick saw but for a blink of the eye, that is, until it came time to bash the preterists:

Recently I had visited a site created by he whom we shall not name and I stumbled across this comment regarding Preterists*:

“If what full preterism says is true, then they have to also be saying that the apostles did a lousy job at relating the truth that was revealed to them...since by the full preterist premise either the Church quickly corrupted or quickly forgot what the apostles taught. So much for the gates of hades not prevailing against Christ's Church eh? -- So yes, full preterism is ARROGANT by nature & design.”

When I first started looking into Preterism, I had a reform “friend” offer up this objection as well. It was weak then; it is a weak argument now.

1. I find it interesting that “reform” Christians would employ this argument because it fails to acknowledge the reality that ULTIMATELY God is in charge of the whole teaching/learning business. There’s an interesting statement in Hebrews 6 to demonstrate my point:

“Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.” – Hebrews 6.1-3

And this we will do if God permits….wait a second. Paul, you mean God may not permit us to “do” “this”? God may not permit us to “leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity”?

Yes.

Therefore, God controls the learning/maturity process of believers and a lack of learning/maturity may not necessarily reflect the capabilities of our earthly “teacher”.

“Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.” Matthew 23.10

Jesus here is obviously making an epistemological statement. The Bible itself gives us examples of “instructors” and “teachers” and “fathers” (v. 9) Therefore, Jesus was not saying, “don’t call your dad ‘father’ because you only have one father. And don’t call your pastor “instructor” because you only have one instructor.” Instead, He’s pointing us to the ULTIMATE instructor, the Christ.

Ultimately, God is the one who does the teaching. Ultimately, earthly instructors do not teach but merely call our attention to what Christ is teaching our minds. This is what Jesus is driving at in Mt 23…”you have one instructor, the Christ.”

Aurelius Augustine: “But men are mistaken, so that they call those teachers who are not teachers, merely because for the most part there is no delay between the time of speaking and the time of cognition. And since after the speaker has reminded them, the pupils quickly learn within, they think that they have been taught outwardly by him who prompts them……”

“….So that now we may not only believe but also begin to understand that it has truly been written on divine authority that we are not to call anyone on earth our master because there is only one Master of all who is in heaven. But what in heaven means, he himself will advertise to us by means of men, through signs and outwardly, so that we may by turning inwardly to him be made wise; whom to know and to love is the blessed life which, though all claim to see it, few indeed may rejoice that they have found.” ~ Concerning the Teacher.

God is in control of the process. And since God is in control of the “inward” cognition, a lack of cognition may not necessarily be tied to the inability of the earthly teacher to “prompt” us.

All of which is just another way of saying that the objection fails because a pupil’s “forgetting” something or not getting it at all is not NECESSARILY a reflection upon the teacher. God may have other plans.

2. Another reason this objection is weak is because it fails to acknowledge examples given to us in Scripture itself of pupils simply not getting it.

Was Jesus a “lousy” teacher?

14 Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? - Mark 8

Are we to argue that Christ was a “lousy” teacher seeing that the disciples “quickly forgot”? God forbid.

One last example will suffice; one directly related to “eschatology”:

2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? - 2 Thessalonians 2

Interestingly, in both examples, Christ and Paul questioned their “memory”. “Do you not remember?” Yet, our objector argues that the apostles must have been lousy teachers for the church “quickly forgot what the apostles taught”.

I hope I have demonstrated what a “lousy” argument this is. It is one that fails to acknowledge other possible factors in the learning process, namely the sovereignty of God; and it is one that flat out ignores examples within the Scripture itself of pupils either a little slow or simply not getting what Jesus and/or the Apostles taught. And many of these students got the teaching first-hand. Heaven forbid these objectors would now impugn the job of Christ and His Apostles. That is where such a fallacious argument would lead if taken seriously.

And this you will see if God permits. ( ;

* Preterism is the belief that the death/burial/resurrection of Christ and his “coming” were the two foci of one complete, eschaton (end time) that pertain to the fulfillment of all redemptive history and prophecy within the closing period (“last days”) of the Old Covenant age.

My responce:



Kingneb said:

Quoting me:

"This would be like every scribe falling into error at the same passage of scripture, in the same way, and at the same time. "

So are you telling me that there is a single, orthodox interpretation for every single passage in the bible?

My Response:
What is a scribe?




Eternal said:
Quote:

"Well, to be honest Israel would fit your bill here. By and large they misunderstood the coming Kingdom, that the Messiah would have to be killed and raised from the dead. And that was a pretty long time as well. Jesus was breaking open the scriptures for them and they jaws dropped. They just plain misinterpreted scripture, in pretty much every school of Jewish thought.

Or consider even Paul's efforts to demonstrate through scripture that God's plan all along was THROUGH Israel for the world and not just FOR Israel. They pretty much missed this by and large too, not as bad as the death and resurrection of the coming Messiah, but missed it by a pretty large margin none the less.

And this is scripture and history telling us this.

So I am not sure if that argument is actually a sound one here. Since we are taught by scripture that it does really happen."

My Response to Eternal:




Eternal's response back:
Quote:

"

The apostles didn't get it until Jesus explained it to them, is my point:

Quote:

Luke 24:13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, "What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 "Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see." 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. Luke 24: 44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 "You are witnesses of these things. 49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

They totally missed it.

My response to Eternal:
After Jesus explained it to them, did they all have amnesia shortly afterwards?

In order for KingNeb to be right, something had to be tought to a group of people, then all of them had to have gotten amnesia......shortly after.




Eternal's response:
Quote:



My Response to Eternal:




Kingneb said:

My Response:
I hold to what the Apostolic fathers, pre-nicene fathers, and post nicene fathers had to say about 70 A.D.

You forgot that I use to be a pre-millennialist. I was raised dispy, but when I started reading the works of some of the pre-nicene christians, I adopted the popular pre-millenial view of the time.

I dropped ante-Nicene pre-mill 3 years ago when I became Orthodox.

And yes, I still believe what they had to say about 70 A.D. and it's not the same as what you say......for if it was the same......then you wouldn't be a full-preterist.

You keep saying all the extra stuff, but that stuff isn't extra. You took away what was always there.

ICXC NIKA




Eternal said:


My Response:
Happening to all and at the sametime?

Eternal, I think you are confusing two different things. You are confusing a mystery.....something that was not revealed......and had to be explained with something that was revealed and explained.

You keep saying I am moving the goal post, but I am not. If something was explained, then it's not a matter of it being hidden. Instead, it is a matter of preserving what was told.

Now if it was hidden, then in order for Neb to be right.....it had to be hidden from christians ...only for it to be revealed to the gnostics and later full-preterists.




Kingneb said:
Quote:

" Jnorm,

I don't understand what you are saying. So let me clarify what i am saying.

1) I side with Owens and other reformed men that acceptance of the Word of God does not rest on the testimony of the church.

The link i provided below of John Owen's work provides a devastating critique of Rick's view.

2) Revelation was complete in the first century. Therefore, from that point onward it is not a matter of things being "hidden", but a matter of understanding what has been revealed.

3) The general understanding of the church does not equal the understanding of those apostles that were chosen to bring about that revelation. The revelatory apostles, if you will, are in a totally separate camp than the rest of us.

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by His singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical;[17] so as, in all controversies of religion, the Church is finally to appeal unto them.[18] But, because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them,[19] therefore they are to be translated in to the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,[20] that, the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner;[21] and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.[22]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

The WCF, on this point, is clear and biblical. The writings of Paul, as one example of a revelatory apostle, were "immediately inspired". They were received as a revelation from God. The rest of us...the ECF, popes, bishops, Jnorm, Kingneb....do NOT fall into that same category. Our writings, our councils, our creeds and confessions, do NOT fall into the same category and are therefore subject to the Scripture.

ALL DECREES OF COUNCILS, OPINIONS OF ANCIENT WRITERS, DOCTRINES OF MEN, AND PRIVATE SPIRITS ARE TO BE EXAMINED.

It does not get any plainer than that. EXAMINED...not automatically assumed to be correct because the council had Johnny Smith in it and he's a cool guy, plus a bunch of other cool men we like.

The fact that a large number of men come with the same opinion does NOT necessarily infer that the opinion is correct. Logic 101. Scripture is correct and our opinions are to be examined by it.

4) I don't believe the revelatory apostles (Paul, Peter, John, etc.) erred in anything they wrote. So to charge me with believing that Paul, for example, misunderstood something because Polycarp misunderstood something, is nonsense. Polycarp (or any other father you want to name) is not in the same category as Paul. Polycarp is no different than us, only that he lived in closer proximity to Paul's time. And as i have pointed out in the past, proximity in time does NOT assure accuracy.

People sitting directly under Paul's teaching got things wrong. Heck, Roderick here has grossly misrepresented Sam, someone who is alive now and all it would take is a phone call to prove Rod's interpretation of Sam wrong; yet he refuses and will continue to lie about a contemporary; so what in the world would make us think that just because some dude lived in or near the time of Paul, that he automatically understands Paul correctly?

5) Scripture no where promises that those leaders who would come after the apostles would come to a complete understanding of everything in the scripture at once.

Arguing for organic development, as i do, is not the same thing as arguing for some mysterious, hidden content as you seem to suggest i am doing.

Preterist interpretation has always been available to understand from the scripture, and in fact, i would argue that most, if not all, of the main elements of preterism HAVE been seen; only for people to go BEYOND it with a sensual, delayed coming in some unknown future.

Preterists did not invent a metaphorical understanding of Ez 37. Preterists did not invent an ad70 "coming" of Christ. Preterists did not invent the understanding that souls were raised out of sheol/hades in the first century. Preterists did not invent the understanding that Daniel's 70 weeks are fulfilled.

And if in fact you are paying any attention at all to scholarship, it is becoming more "preteristic". Even those who despise preterism, like Gentry, are putting out revisions and assigning more and more passages to first century fulfillment."

My Response:
You and I already argued about this before in years past. But what does this have to do with the topic at hand? In this conversation I was talking about scribes, scribal error, and how members in the church in general either error, fall away, misunderstand.....etc.

And just like how EVERY scribe DIDN'T make copy errors in the same passage of scripture, and at the same time.....in like manner, EVERYONE who heard the Apostles didn't misunderstand, fall away, or error in the same way, and at the same time.

Did all the known church plants forget, fall away, and mis-understand the Apostles? Yes or no? Did they all have amnesia shortly after the apostles died? Yes or no?


Tell this to Eternal, for he was the one making an argument for mis-understanding things not yet revealed/explained. He thought I was moving the goal post. Thanks for being more clear about the issue being one of Mis-understanding something that was known/revealed/explained.....etc, and not one of misunderstanding something that was hidden/not explained/not revealed......etc. Now I can cross out what I said earlier in my option # 2 with Eternal:
(2.) God kept it hidden from christians until the arrival of the christian gnostics and later full-preterists some 1970 years later) and (You keep saying I am moving the goal post, but I am not. If something was explained, then it's not a matter of it being hidden. Instead, it is a matter of preserving what was told.
Now if it was hidden, then in order for Neb to be right.....it had to be hidden from christians ...only for it to be revealed to the gnostics and later full-preterists.)


So Mr. Neb,

Since the issue is one of understanding that which is revealed, what I said earlier about something being tought to a group of people, and all of them either having amnesia shortly after or all of them mis-understanding and falling away still stands.



Yes, they may be in a totally separate camp as individuals, but you seem to be forgetting one thing.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The power of the Holy Spirit in preserving what was tought by the Apostles. The "you" in the passage above is "plural"....not singular, and so, it is talking about the church/group/collective.



I find it strange and very odd for you to claim to hold to the WCF(Westminister Confession of Faith), yet you refuse to hold to all of it. You pick and choose what you like from it like some kind of salad bowl or fast food place. Now maybe if you held to all of it I would take you more seriously when you quote it.

However, with all that said, Scripture does say:

1 John 2:27
"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

And so, if 1st John 2:27 is correct.....which I believe it is....then there should be at least some kind of track record in "KNOWN RECORDED CHRISTIAN HISTORY" about the 2nd advent still being future or not. In order for your view to be correct the early christians from 70A.D. to about 200A.D. should of tought the idea that the 2nd advent was already past for it happened in 70A.D. and that the anti-christs were correct in there not being a "physical" resurrection.

Kingneb, it seems more likely that you are misunderstanding one passage of Scripture in Math chapter 24. For it is causing you to not only make huge chunks of Scripture "figurative speech", but it is also causing you to put Scripture against History. Such a thing is really unnecessary.


1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Was God sleeping at the wheel? Did God refuse to preserve the Truth about this matter in REAL RECORDED CHRISTIAN HISTORY?


In order for you to be right, EVERYONE of their church plants and hearers would have to fall for the same error, and at the same time.

Did they all fall for the same error? Yes or no?

According to Scripture, Paul makes it seem as if EVERYONE will not fall away.....that EVERYONE will not misunderstand.....that EVERYONE will not quickly have amnesia.

1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

In order for your view to be correct......no one can be approved! No one can be made manifest among the people for they all fell away, had amnesia, misunderstood.....etc.

My view is that ALL will not fall away, have amnesia, misunderstand.....etc.


Did all Sam's readers and hearers misunderstand him? If so, then you misunderstood him to!

So did all of Saint Paul's hearers misrepresent him? Did all of his church plants fall away and misunderstood him? Did all his readers and hearers misunderstand him?


That's not the point. The point is about "holding on" to what has been passed down. This is the point....for if the Apostles tought something, then it is up to their hearers and listenners to "preserve it".

And so, whatever knowledge that comes later isn't gonna contradict the original knowledge that came before.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

If your Doctrinal Development guts the foundation of christianity then it's obviously false.



A better understanding of things won't happen until we are glorified.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

But you can't believe in such a thing now can you?



I was arguing with Eternal when I said that.....for he was talking about misunderstanding something that wasn't revealed.


Seventh Day Adventists can only use Scripture when trying to put the yoke of the jewish Sabbath on folk. The same is true for alot of different groups, and so, only using scripture isn't necessarily a gaurantee of being free from error.

At the end of the day, you still have to rightly divide the Word of God.



We know from your other thread that the Reformed and Calvinistic partial prets helped you to become a full blown full preterist.

I obviously don't agree with them and their views about the issue..



You mean scholarship within Reformed, Calvinistic and maybe some Roman Catholic circles.

I too believe that some things were fulfilled in 70A.D., but my view of what happened in 70A.D. is the same as the pre-nicene pre-millers, and amillers.

And so to me, it is more about PRESERVING / HOLDING ON to that, and not reconstructing a new belief that changes the very heart and foundation of christianity.







ICXC NIKA


Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 1

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 2

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 3

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 4

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 5