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Monday, March 1, 2010

Did the Apostles do a Lousy Job? Part 3

As seen from the Theo forums of Holyculture.net

Quote:
Originally Posted by king neb View  Post
Rick just got done saying that we don't even "know" who wrote the athan. creed! Lol. So even you guys admit that there are unknownables in history.
We don't know with 100% certainty who wrote the book of Hebrews either. That too is an unknowable. Infact, if you dismiss the claims of the early Christians in who wrote what Gospel, then we wouldn't even know who wrote some of the Gospels either.....with 100% certainty. Also, I never claimed that there weren't any "unknowables" in history. The Gospels, the Epistle of Hebrews and the western Athanasius creed at least truly existed in "KNOWABLE HISTORY".

That is totally different than the existence of full-preterists being absent within the Church in Recorded knowable History.


Quote:
History is not an infallible guide.
Who said it was? I never said it was! But it is a guide, and if your view doesn't exist in most of Knowable recorded church history, then that should throw up some red flags that maybe your way of dividing scripture is fallible.

Is the way you interpret Scripture INFALLIBLE? If not, then maybe you can use Knowable recorded church history as a tool to help you correct a faulty exegesis.

Quote:
I'll stick with clark's brilliant analysis on history anyday.
So, Clark's analysis of history was INFALLIBLE?


Quote:
Also, I never said that the apostles did a lousy job, jnorm. Perhaps you should read it again.
I know you didn't say that, but your view will have to lead to that conclusion anyway. Because the Apostles did teach something about the Resurrection, and it was up to the next generation to hold on to what they taught...... and your view wasn't taught by the early christians......instead it was taught by the gnostics......one of their main enemies.

And so, in order for your view to be right, everyone in recorded known history had to become apostate, fell away, got it wrong, forgot.....etc.

Quote:
Lastly, how do you account for various millennial positions, salvation positions, free will debates, and every other schism that occurred early on in the church?

It is because of Knowable recorded church history that we know about all these differences. And so, I accept the reality of it.

What you should be worried about is why your view about the Resurrection shows up among the ancient gnostics in knowable recorded church history? What you should be worried about is why your view of full-preterism shows up pretty late in knowable recorded church history.

You see, your view is a difference too. Your view was debated too. Your view is a schism too. It's just that it was all these things late in time.

Yes the radar shows a marker in history of when something happened.

Just like we can tell how old a tree is by the rings of it's trunk:



We can tell how old a certain biblical interpretation/view is as well. How do we know about the circumcision sect, Sabellianism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Apollinarianism.....etc? How do we know about all this stuff? It is because the debates caused a ripple in Church history. A scar, an imprint!

How do we know about some of the different movements that popped up over time? It is because they left a mark in Church History. It is because the unity of the Church was disturbed by it.

This is why we know about Montanism, Novationism, Ebionites, Donatists.....etc. This is why we know about Tertullian changing for something else in his later years. The same with Tatian. This is why Clement of Alexandria is not considered a Saint among the Eastern Orthodox because we don't know about his life after a certain point in time of persecution. Christians were all up in your business back then.....just as we still are today. So yes, I accept all those difference you mentioned as a reality! It exist in knowable recorded History.

The same is true when it comes to the history of the Baptist church I was raised in. In my time there, the congregation split twice. Those splits are known among the members of that congregation because it disturbed the unity of the faithful there.

And so yes, I accept those things as a reality. Your full-preterism comes late in time, and that is the REALITY of your view.


Quote:
You want to accuse me of saying that the Holy Spirit did a lousy job, but then want to turn right around and speak of this "orthodox faith" that adheres to three opposing eschatological views.
What did Saint Paul say?
1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

1 out of the 3 has to be right. All 3 can't be wrong for there has to be a "they which are approved may be made manifest among you"

But all heresy isn't at the same level of wrongness. Some are more wrong than others. Saint Paul didn't mind the circumcision sect until they started to cause him and his gentile followers problems. He didn't mind those who didn't eat meat until they started to cause his gentile followers problems.

And so, all error isn't equal. Some are more harmful than others. Full-preterism destroys the Faith. Shoot! Even some forms of Partial-Preterism destroys the faith.

Pre-mill doesn't. Eventhough my Church rejects pre-mill.....they are very lenient or soft handed when it comes to the error. The only difference I can see between Eastern Amill and pre-nicene pre-mill is the 1,000 year reign and the super foods and other carnal things within that reign. And this is why it was easy for me to switch. I really didn't have to change that much.



Quote:
And then Rick tries to cover it up as though these serious differences did not exist. If amill is the biblical view, "where was the spirit" when premillennialism and postmill showed up?
Amill existed along with Pre-mill. I have to review, but you start to see people arguing against pre-mill around 200A.D.

Caius from Rome, argued against the view, and he lived around 215 A.D.

Origen and Dionysius from Alexandria both fought against the view.
Origen lived from 185 A.D. to about 255 A.D.
And Dionysius was ordained a Bishop around 247 A.D. and he mentioned that there were people before his time, that rejected the book of Revelations.

The book of Revelations had a hard time being accepted in the christian East....which is ironic for it came from the East. It was immediately embraced by the christian west. The west, had a hard time embracing/accepting the book of Hebrews. But eventually the West made the East embrace Revelations, and the East made the West embrace Hebrews.

But to answer your question....Acts chapter 15 shows us how the Church solves some disputes.



Quote:
Where was this "leads into truth", inspired 3rd century classroom of yours
In the book of Acts, we see how the Apostles handled the circumcision party dispute.
Acts 15:28
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

You have beef with councils, but gathering to solve disputes is Scriptural.

1st Corinth 6:1-2
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?



Quote:
My explanation is quite simple. THE standard, the ONLY INFALLIBLE standard for what constitutes "Christianity" is the word of God, period. What John, Jim, or any 2nd, 3rd generation "bishop" does with that text has no more weight than what Rick of 2010 does with it.
If I must talk about INFALLIBLE Authority, then the only INFALLIBLE AUTHORITY is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It was God that Inspired Scripture, and it's God that leads the Church into all truth.



It seems like to me that your only standard is your flawed interpretation. You are only hiding behind Scripture as a smoke screen.
You refuse to admit that maybe....just maybe....you took a wrong turn in your exegesis. Instead of going right you went left, somewhere along the process, and instead of checking yourself for errors you are sticking your nose up and blaming most of known recorded church history for being wrong.

I find it strange that you will pick and choose a side when it comes to christians being divided on an issue, but you refuse to side with christians when they are actually united on something.


Quote:
What does the TEXT say....God, via his revelation, determines "orthodoxy", not some majority vote by a bunch of people who arbitrarily decide what is "important" or not.
This is what the text says:
1.Jude 1:3
"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


John chapter 17:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."


Acts 15:28
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:


and

2 Timothy 2
1You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others. 3Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Did Saint Timothy do a Lousy job? I say no! In order for you to be right, the earlychristians who taught that our Resurrection was physical had to be wrong. All the people in whom Timothy taught and discipled had to get it wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:14
By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.

Saint Paul used the word dead only once here. Last month, you and Brandon tried to make our "Resurrection" something different from Christ's Resurrection. Well this verse is making it more difficult for you guys to do that. You see, 1st Corinth 15 should be obvious.

Now if we combined this with 1st Corinth 15, then there is little to no wiggle room to assume that our Resurrection is different from that of Christ's.

Like I said before, the word "death" is only used once here. So what are you and Brandon gonna do? You can't say that the word "death" is figurative......for that would make Christ's death figurative as well.

The same word is used for both us and Jesus, and since your hermeneutics doesn't allow you to believe that a verse can have more than one interpretation. It looks like the only thing you can do is have one interpretation for the word "death".

So which is it gonna be? Figurative or Literal?



You can't say that our rising is "figurative" for that would make Christ's rising figurative too! So which is it gonna be? Figurative or Literal?


What are you gonna do Neb? How are you gonna interpret this verse? How are you gonna get out of this one?






ICXC NIKA


Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 1

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 2

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 3

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 4

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 5

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