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Monday, March 1, 2010

Did The Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 2

As seen from

Originally Posted by Poetik View Post
Ok, I know I'm madd late but I just wanted to make this comment:
Did you get a chance to first read what the topic was really about?

I'm not a historic relativist, but I think that if we're honest to ourselves, there's no real way to know what everybody believed.
Do you know what the topic was about? Is it your view that all the listeners, readers, and hearers of the Apostles quickly forgot, misread, mis-understood, fell away, or had amnesia?

Scripture says:
1.Jude 1:3
"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

But how could this be if the Apostles did a lousy job? How can the Faith be handed to the next generation of believers if they all fell away? If they all mis-understood? If they all fell into error or quickly somehow had amnesia?

Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

How can anyone in the generations after the Apostles be approved if they all were led astray, fell into error, mis-understood, fell away, or had amnesia?

Scripture says:
1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

The "you" in this verse is "plural". Thus communal/community/church/gathering...etc.

How can the Holy Spirit lead the Church into all truth if all quickly fell away, fell into error, misunderstood, had amnesia? How?

In John Chapter 17, Jesus not only prays for his disciples, but he also prays for those who would believe in Him through them:

John chapter 17:
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

If we can believe in Jesus's prayer for His disciples, then why can't we also believe in His prayer for those who would believe in Him through His disciples?

If all were to fall away, be led astray, mis-understand, fall into error, or have amnesia, then how can they all be one with the Apostles, Jesus and the Father?

The expansion of the church was explosive, much like it is today!!
If there is no real way to know what the past was like then how can you even say this? For how do you know? How can you know?

But look at this forum--->Nobody on here can speak for every single Christian and on what he or she believes. You just can't do it. That doesn't mean that just because the bulk of cats on here are Reformed doesn't mean that means everyone in America or the known world is. That's foolishness.
I don't think anyone was claiming this. But since you brought this up. I will say:

How do we know what John Calvin tought? How do we know what Reformed protestantism is?

How can we know if noone can truely know anything about the past? How can we know that John Calvin was a real person? How can we know if the teachings of calvinism was truely passed on faithfully to the next generation of calvinists?

How can we know if no one can really know what the past was like?

What I am arguing is......surely we can know!

So to say that oh, "Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, yada, yada, yada all believed this..." doesn't mean that they constituted the majority (INSERT A WORD OF FAITH PASTOR IN THE NAMES I JUST MENTIONED AND THAT PROVES MY POINT).
How can it prove your point when the word of faith pastors didn't even exist back then? Are you trying to tell me that Creflo was preaching from 70A.D. to 200A.D.?

Are you telling me that Kenneth Copeland, Haggin, and Price were preaching and pastoring churches from 70A.D. to 200A.D.?

Saint Polycarp was a friend as well as a disciple of Saint John the Apostle.
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.

Saint Ignatius was also a disciple of Saint John the Apostle

Saint Clement of Rome may have known Saint Paul.....I have to review in order to make sure. And so these great men of God are in a totally different category than modern word of faith pastors my friend. I am insulted and a little angry that you would group them together.

There could've been those who disagreed with them, but we don't have their writings to prove that they existed--->it doesn't mean they didn't exist, though.
They had some disagreements back then. If you read them you would of known that. And in regards to the nature of the Resurrection, yes, they did fight against the gnostics of their day, who like modern full-preterists and liberals (some liberals deny not only the virgin birth, but also a physical resurrection) denied that the resurrection was physical.

If you notice from the quotes below, the word "resurrection" is in reference to the whole person, and not just the spirit/soul alone. Therefore, the word 2nd temple judaism and onward.... had a certain meaning. Now I know that in modern times, due to playing around with the meaning of words from the Biblical text, that the word can mean more than one thing, but in 2nd Temple judaism and meant a specific thing. And even in the Bible, in an Apostolic hermenuetical context, I believe it meant a "physical rising of the body".....since the Apostles are also part of the 2nd Temple Jewish tradition/context.

But in reference to the next generation of christians, they knew exactly what the belief was.....for their enemies tought it.

"You may have fallen in with some [Gnostics] who are called christians, but who do not admit this. For they venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham....and say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven. Do not imagine that they are Christians." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.

"[The Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.....Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death." Ignatuis 105 A.D.

"[The Gnostics] possess no proof of their system, which has but recently been invented by them. Sometimes they rest upon certain numbers; sometimes, on syllables; and still other times, on names." Irenaeus 180

"[The Gnostics] ....are very anxious to shake that belief in the resurrection that was firmly settled before the appearance of our modern Sadducees. As a result, they even deny that the expectation thereof has any relation whatever to the flesh....For they cannot but be apprehensive that, if it is once determined that Christ's flesh was human, a presumption would immediately arise in opposition to them that our flesh must by all means rise again. For it has already risen in Christ." Tertullian 210 A.D.

"The Apostle directs a similar blow against those who said that [B]"the resurrection was already past."[/b] Such an opinion do the Valentinians assert" Tertullian 197 A.D.

"On the otherhand, they say that carnal men are instructed in carnal things. Such "carnal men" can be recognized by their works and their simple faith. For they do not have perfect knowledge [gnosis]. The Valentinians say that we who belong to the church are such carnal persons. Therefore, they maintain that good works are necessary for us. Otherwise, it would be impossible for us to be saved. But as to themselves, they hold that they will be entirely saved for a certainty-not by means of their conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature." Irenaeus 180 A.D.

Maybe they didn't write, but taught all the time. Maybe they wrote, but their writings were burned or lost. You don't know! And we won't ever know. That's the beauty of history!! The more you find out, the more you don't find out.
So some secret knowledge unknown to the known christian historical record.....until now? When I was arguing with Eternal, I mentioned this idea, and Kingneb denied that this was his view. His view is an organic development modal. You would have known this if you read the first post of the well as some of the later posts.

The Aposltes tought openly, and it was up to their hearers to hold on to what was tought. The Apostles didn't teach openly to one group of disciples/followers only to teach the opposite in secret to another group that nobody knows of. Some of the men you and I mentioned above was actually discipled by an Apostle. And so, the issue is about holding on to what was passed on. It's either they were wrong about our Resurrection from the grave or they were right about it. If they were right, then Kingneb, Brandon, Sam Frost, full-preterism, protestant liberals.....and ancient gnosticism were all wrong.

If the ancient christians were wrong, then the ancient gnostics, Kingneb, Brandon, Sam Frost, liberal protestants, and full-preterists were all right.

Also, I would like to add that muslims, pagans, liberals, and even some atheists will make similar claims about what they want to believe in and what they feel was "true christianity".

For the Muslims, they feel that Jesus never died on the cross, and the only "real" historical evidence they have in their favor are by some ancient gnostics. They also believe that what Jesus tought was what muhammad tought, but it was corrupted by later christians, but there is no historical evidence to support such a thing, and so they too can claim some secret wisdom or knowledge or total apostasy theory.

For some atheists, and pagans, they think Jesus never existed. There is no ancient historical evidence in known history for such a claim.

In the mid to late 18 hundreds the German highercritical/philosophical naturalistic scholar Bruno Bauer invented the argument that Jesus never existed. The idea is less than 150 years old. It was a naturalistic reconstruction of history. But with your argument, one can say, noone can truely say that such a claim is new for we don't know what every single person tought from the 1st century to 1850 A.D.

One could also say that we don't know if there were christians who tought that Jesus didn't exist and that it was all a myth. We don't know if they wrote anything or if they kept it to themselves or passed it along in secret.....until 1850 A.D.

Now let's say that within the next 20 years, archaeologists finally find a scroll where some ancient preterists believed yada-yada... the argument that, "Preterism is not historic" is thus thrown out the window because you'd then have actual proof.
I'm sure there are liberal protestants, nonbelieving jews, agnostics, and atheists saying the samething about the "historical Jesus" and finding his bones in a grave somewhere....thus historic christianity being thrown out the window because you'd then have actual proof.

The truth is, such a thing will never happen, for if you were familiar with the writtings of early christians, then you would already know that the belief about our Resurrection from the dead that full-preterists and some liberals hold to was already tought by the ancient gnostics. And so, whatever they will find ....will be a gnostic work......just like the Gospel of Thomas, Barnabus....etc. are gnostic works......and so modern Archaeology already found it. But guess what?

The early christians wrote about those works and they told us that they were writtin by the gnostics......their enemies.....long before modern Archaeology dug it up. Infact, some thought that the early christians were lying about those books and the early gnostics......that is......until they found those books.

So already the argument from antiquity is on shaky ground because we're constantly discovering things about the past. History is not merely an open-shut case like the Word of God. It just isn't.
Antiquity is not on shaky ground. What makes something on shakyground is "speculation"...."assumption"......etc.

If you are not speculating, then how can it be on shaky ground? Science keeps changing because of inherit "speculation"....assumptions in their predictions. And this is one of the reasons why the theory/philosophy of "falsification" was formed.

The Israelites went years upon years without having the Law, and then one King happened to find it. The Israelites, in the Book of Judges, did what was right in their own sight for years and years. Many Jews believe and still believe that the Messiah hadn't shown up yet. Buddhism and Hinduism is ancient faith, doesn't mean they are more credible. Some pagan stories have similarities to biblical accounts and are older than Judaism, but it doesn't mean that Moses or any of the other OT writers copied them.
What you have to prove is that every individual jew.....including the lead/head prophet of the time was unfaithful. I believe Scripture talking about God having a Remnant.

In order for you to be correct, there either can be no Remnant, or the Remnant can't be known.....can't be visible or known in real recorded History until centuries later.

Can we know what Calvinism is? Can we know what Calvin tought and what the next generation of Calvinists tought? Or is it impossible to know?

Can we know what John Wesly tought and what the next generation of Methodists tought?
Or is it impossible to know?

Can we know what what the early Azusa street Pentacostals tought and what the next generation of Pentacostals tought? Or is it impoosible to know?

You seem to be advocating some type of agnosticism when it comes to this.

People can say Preterism or any other interpretation is new and alien, but really it isn't. Even the Bible states that there is nothing new under the sun and that what has been is what will be.
Parts of it are new while other parts of it are old. This is why I call it neognostic

The same is true when it comes to modern Arianism and modalism. There are parts of JWism that is the same as ancient Arianism, and their are parts that are a little bit different. There are parts of Oneness Pentacostalism that are the same as ancient modalism/Sabellianism, and there are parts that are a little different.

And so heresies have a tendency to mutate/change/evolve.


Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 1

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 2

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 3

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 4

Did the Apostles Do A Lousy Job? Part 5


John Lofton, Recovering Republican said...

Hope you’ll take some time, please, Christina, to visit our site, read some articles, listen to some radio shows, give me some feedback. Also hope you’ll consider listening to the radio show live and call in.

We are Christians FIRST -- not Republican Party cheerleaders.

God bless you, your family, your work.

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Communications Director, Institute on the Constitution
Host, “The American View” Radio Show
Recovering Republican

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PS -- Tell me, please, your specific areas of interest and I'll match you up with some of our articles, radio shows. My desire is to help equip Christians to defend the faith since the war against Christ in America is more explicit and intense than it ever has been....

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