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Wednesday, March 2, 2011

Constantine & Jeroboam?

This is from the Holyculture Radio forum. It took me a few hours to write and so I really didn't want to loose it if the forum decided to delete all threads. (something they did two or three times in the past)

1 Kings 12:25-33
"Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there. From there he went out and built up Peniel.
Jeroboam thought to himself, “The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.”
After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. And this thing became a sin; the people came to worship the one at Bethel and went as far as Dan to worship the other.
Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites. He instituted a festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival held in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. This he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves he had made. And at Bethel he also installed priests at the high places he had made. On the fifteenth day of the eighth month, a month of his own choosing, he offered sacrifices on the altar he had built at Bethel. So he instituted the festival for the Israelites and went up to the altar to make offerings."


Quote Originally Posted by Rina_cz View Post
If you see the things Jeroboam did when he got his kingdom, they are very similar to what Constantine did.



Like what?


Jeroboam set up a priesthood,


Where did Constantine do this? When did he do this? The clergy system of the Church was there before he was born. Let's look at the writings of Saint Ignatius. He was a Christian who was a disciple of the Apostle John and he died around the year 110A.D.:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.viii.html?
Quote:
Chapter VIII.—Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord’s might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast. But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid."




changed times of worship,


Where did Constantine do this? When did he do this? Christians always worshiped on Sunday. Let's start with the Bible then with the early Church:
holyculture.net/forum/Why Sunday?

What day is the Sabbath? The Sabbath is from friday sunset to saturday sunset. Did early christians observe the sabbath? Only early jewish christians and God-fearing Gentile converts who were into Judaism before becoming Christian. Modern Ethiopian christians are a prime example of this....for they still observe jewish/mosaic laws.

Non God-fearing Gentile converts to Christianity aren't suppose to observe Sabbaths!

I'm gonna start with Scripture, then I will go to the early fathers.

(Saint Paul quoted this O.T. passage in Galations)
Isaiah 1:13
"Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies."



Galations 4:9-11
"But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."


Romans 14:4-6
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."



The reason for Non God-Fearing Gentiles to stay away from the jewish Sabbath, Circumcision and clean and unclean food laws:


Colossians 2:11-23
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.



and

Eph 2:11-18
"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."



Eversince the Resurrection, Christians always gathered to worship and break bread on Sunday! This is why it is called the Lord's day! We can see this on the very day Jesus Rose from the dead!

Luke 24:14-15
"And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them."

Luke 24:35
"And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread."

John
"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

And the practice/custom to gather on the first day continued:

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


Testimony of the Early Church:


Saint Ignatius, around 107 A.D.: (A disciple of Saint John the Apostle. So when John says "the Lord's day" in the book of Revelations, he meant, Sunday(Saturday night to Sunday night...or for latins/western Christians, midnight to midnight) the first day of the week)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
[QUOTE]Quote:
"Chapter 8. Caution against false doctrines

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.


Chapter 9. Let us live with Christ

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. Matthew 27:52


Chapter 10. Beware of Judaizing

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God."



Aristides, around 125 A.D.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1012.htm

Quote:
"14. Let us come now, O King, to the history of the Jews also, and see what opinion they have as to God. The Jews then say that God is one, the Creator of all, and omnipotent; and that it is not right that any other should be worshipped except this God alone. And herein they appear to approach the truth more than all the nations, especially in that they worship God and not His works. And they imitate God by the philanthropy which prevails among them; for they have compassion on the poor, and they release the captives, and bury the dead, and do such things as these, which are acceptable before God and well-pleasing also to men—which (customs) they have received from their forefathers.

Nevertheless they too erred from true knowledge. And in their imagination they conceive that it is God they serve; whereas by their mode of observance it is to the angels and not to God that their service is rendered:— as when they celebrate sabbaths and the beginning of the months, and feasts of unleavened bread, and a great fast; and fasting and circumcision and the purification of meats, which things, however, they do not observe perfectly.

15. But the Christians, O King, while they went about and made search, have found the truth; and as we learned from their writings, they have come nearer to truth and genuine knowledge than the rest of the nations. For they know and trust in God, the Creator of heaven and of earth, in whom and from whom are all things, to whom there is no other god as companion, from whom they received commandments which they engraved upon their minds and observe in hope and expectation of the world which is to come.



The Letter to Diognetus around 150 A.D. give or take some decades:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html
Quote:
"CHAPTER III -- SUPERSTITIONS OF THE JEWS.

And next, I imagine that you are most desirous of hearing something on this point, that the Christians do not observe the same forms of divine worship as do the Jews. The Jews, then, if they abstain from the kind of service above described, and deem it proper to worship one God as being Lord of all, [are right]; but if they offer Him worship in the way which we have described, they greatly err. For while the Gentiles, by offering such things to those that are destitute of sense and hearing, furnish an example of madness; they, on the other hand by thinking to offer these things to God as if He needed them, might justly reckon it rather an act of folly than of divine worship. For He that made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and gives to us all the things of which we stand in need, certainly requires none of those things which He Himself bestows on such as think of furnishing them to Him. But those who imagine that, by means of blood, and the smoke of sacrifices and burnt-offerings, they offer sacrifices [acceptable] to Him, and that by such honours they show Him respect,--these, by supposing that they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, appear to me in no respect to differ from those who studiously confer the same honour on things destitute of sense, and which therefore are unable to enjoy such honours.


CHAPTER IV -- THE OTHER OBSERVANCES OF THE JEWS.


But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,--I do not think that you require to learn anything from me. For, to accept some of those things which have been formed by God for the use of men as properly formed, and to reject others as useless and redundant,--how can this be lawful? And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days,--how is not this impious? And to glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election, and as if, on account of it, they were specially beloved by God,--how is it not a subject of ridicule? And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,--who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the ChriStians properly abstain from the vanity and error common [to both Jews and Gentiles], and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews; but you must not hope to learn the mystery of their peculiar mode of worshipping God from any mortal.

CHAPTER V -- THE MANNERS OF THE CHRISTIANS.

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities,"



Justin Martyr:, around 150 A.D. (in his conversation/debate with Trypho a jew)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

Quote:
"CHAPTER X -- TRYPHO BLAMES THE CHRISTIANS FOR THIS ALONE--THE NON-OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW.

And when they ceased, I again addressed them thus:--

"Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do? Are our lives and customs also slandered among you? And I ask this: have you also believed concerning us, that we eat men; and that after the feast, having extinguished the lights, we engage in promiscuous concubinage? Or do you condemn us in this alone, that we adhere to such tenets, and believe in an opinion, untrue, as you think?"

"This is what we are amazed at," said Trypho, "but those things about which the multitude speak are not worthy of belief; for they are most repugnant to human nature. Moreover, I am aware that your precepts in the so-called Gospel are so wonderful and so great, that I suspect no one can keep them; for I have carefully read them. But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments. Have you not read, that soul shall be cut off from his people who shall not have been circumcised on the eighth day? And this has been ordained for strangers and for slaves equally. But you, despising this covenant rashly, reject the consequent duties, and attempt to persuade yourselves that you know God, when, however, you perform none of those things which they do who fear God. If, therefore, you can defend yourself on these points, and make it manifest in what way you hope for anything whatsoever, even though you do not observe the law, this we would very gladly hear from you, and we shall make other similar investigations."

CHAPTER XI -- THE LAW ABROGATED; THE NEW TESTAMENT PROMISED AND GIVEN BY GOD.

"There will be no other God, O Trypho, nor was there from eternity any other existing" (I thus addressed him), "but He who made and disposed all this universe. Nor do we think that there is one God for us, another for you, but that He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt with a strong hand and a high arm. Nor have we trusted in any other (for there is no other), but in Him in whom you also have trusted, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob. But we do not trust through Moses or through the law; for then we would do the same as yourselves. But now--(for I have read that there shall be a final law, and a covenant, the chiefest of all, which it is now incumbent on all men to observe, as many as are seeking after the inheritance of God. For the law promulgated on Horeb is now old, and belongs to yourselves alone; but this is for all universally. Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law--namely, Christ--has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy, after which there shall be no law, no commandment, no ordinance. Have you not read this which Isaiah says: 'Hearken unto Me, hearken unto Me, my people; and, ye kings, give ear unto Me: for a law shall go forth from Me, and My judgment shah be for a light to the nations. My righteousness approaches swiftly, and My salvation shall go forth, and nations shall trust in Mine arm?' And by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: 'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt'). If, therefore, God proclaimed a new covenant which was to be instituted, and this for a light of the nations, we see and are persuaded that men approach God, leaving their idols and other unrighteousness, through the name of Him who was crucified, Jesus Christ, and abide by their confession even unto death, and maintain piety. Moreover, by the works and by the attendant miracles, it is possible for all to understand that He is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed.

CHAPTER XII -- THE JEWS VIOLATE THE ETERNAL LAW, AND INTERPRET ILL THAT OF MOSES.

I also adduced another passage in which Isaiah exclaims: "'Hear My words, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given Him for a witness to the people: nations which know not Thee shall call on Thee; peoples who know not Thee shall escape to Thee, because of thy God, the Holy One of Israel; for He has glorified Thee.' This same law you have despised, and His new holy covenant you have slighted; and now you neither receive it, nor repent of your evil deeds. 'For your ears are closed, your eyes are blinded, and the heart is hardened,' Jeremiah has cried; yet not even then do you listen. The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure."



So what did Constantine change? And how is he like Jeroboam? This is the reason why I didn't understand what you were trying to say. You assumed that the Church before his birth was similar to modern 20th and 21st century North American Messianic Judaism. The Church before Constantine wasn't like modern Messianic Judaism. Yes it was different from how it was after Constantine, but in other ways, not in the ways you were thinking of. I hope this helps. If I was mean or rude please let me know.


changed the feast,



Changed what feast? What feast did he change? When did he change it? From the quotes up above, I think you can see that Christians didn't observe the 7 Holy Holidays of God as found in the Old Testament. Well wait. That's not totally true. We always observed at least one of the old feast days. We always observed Pascha/Easter. Most Christians observed it the Sunday following the Jewish Passover while a minority of Christians observed it on the same day as the Jewish Passover. They argued about this and at the council of Nicea they made the majority custom uniform.

Saint IRENÆUS lived around 180A.D. and he was discipled by Saint Polycarp who was discipled by the Apostle John, and we all know that John was a disciple of Jesus. When Saint Irenaeus wrote this he was living in Gaul/France or Spain. But he was born and raised in Asia minor. But this shows an early dispute between Asia Minor and Rome in regards to how to practice Pascha(what would later be called Easter in the English speaking world)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.viii.iii.html?
Quote:
For the controversy is not merely as regards the day, but also as regards the form itself of the fast. For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day. And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of [our common] faith. And the presbyters preceding Soter in the government of the Church which thou dost now rule—I mean, Anicetus and Pius, Hyginus and Telesphorus, and Sixtus—did neither themselves observe it [after that fashion], nor permit those with them to do so. Notwithstanding this, those who did not keep [the feast in this way] were peacefully disposed towards those who came to them from other dioceses in which it was [so] observed although such observance was [felt] in more decided contrariety [as presented] to those who did not fall in with it; and none were ever cast out [of the Church] for this matter. On the contrary, those presbyters who preceded thee, and who did not observe [this custom], sent the Eucharist to those of other dioceses who did observe it. And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him. And in this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other; and Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect; so that they parted in peace one from the other, maintaining peace with the whole Church, both those who did observe [this custom] and those who did not."


This later would be decided at the council of Nicea a couple centuries later.



and incorporated idolatry into the worship of YHVH.



What idolatry? I really don't understand. What do you mean by this?


Now I don't know if you've read, but Jesus instituted a very different feast than that which we celebrate as Easter today.


If you are not talking about Holy Communion then I really don't know what you are talking about. Jesus was Jewish and so he observed all the feast days that Jews celebrated in the first century......including Hanukkah. Early gentile believers weren't required to observe the Old Testament feast days, at least not in the same manor as the Jews. No, we observe Pascha, and Pentecost, other than that we developed our own feast days around Pascha. You can see what I mean by watching this:




If anyone says he loves God and does not keep his commandments he is a liar.


In the New Testament, especially in regards to non-Jews, this meant Loving Jesus as He loved you and loving your neighbor as yourself. Circumcision and the Sabbath wasn't included in this.
John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

and

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.


Constantine was a christian in name only.
Read this book and find out for yourself.


I realize there were many compromises before Constantine came on the scene,



Will you include the New Testament as a compromise? For much of what you see before Constantine can also be seen in the first century as well. Maybe what you think is a compromise was never really a compromise. The Apostles handed something to the next generation of believers and it wasn't circumcision and the sabbath day.


but he is very responsible for the birth of the Catholic church which is the mother of harlots.

The Catholic Church was around centuries before Constantine was born. Jesus and the Apostles are the ones responsible for the birth of the Catholic Church. Let me show you something.

Polycarp died in the mid second century:
quote:
"The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied."


Ignatius died around 110 A.D. (early 2nd century)
Quote:
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."


The Nicene and Constantinople 1 Creed was saying what Christians said for centuries. It wasn't something brand new:
Quote:
"And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

The Catholic Church is not the mother of Harlots, no, She is the Mother of Christians. She is what Jesus started and She is what Jesus will come back for.


The Reformers and Pilgrims fought to keep the pagan holidays out of the church, yet the pagan customs prevailed. Why so many so called "Young, Restless & Reformed" continue in idolatry I don't know.



The Church of England observed Christian Holidays. I could be wrong, but I think the Lutheran protestant tradition does as well. But you are right, the Reformed fought against Christian Holidays. The Christian Holidays come from the Christian Calendar....or Church Calendar. You will have to ask them why they embrace portions of the Church Calender now. Most of these Holidays aren't pagan in origin. Most of them were a natural growth of the original Christian Pascha/Easter Holiday observance. For Christians, Pascha/Easter is the Feast of Feast or Feast days of Feast days.


The book of Acts documents Paul observing the feasts of the Lord, and wrote that we should keep them. So I don't know where you think the whole faith went pagan before Constantine.



Paul was Jewish and he didn't write that we should keep them. Where are you getting that from? He tried real hard to keep the gentile believers from observing them. This is why I said that you must include the New Testament in your list for the shift starts there. It's wrong to point the finger at Constantine. He didn't do what you think he did. The Apostles didn't want the gentile believers to observe those things. And from the writings of the Christians after them, we can see that what the Apostles wanted was exactly what happened.



If you want to continue in your pagan practices and paint Constantine as a good guy, go for it. Just don't say the bible says its okay.



These practices aren't pagan. They are Christian. And yes, I like Constantine. Was he perfect no? Was King David perfect? No! But I like King David too! And yes, I think I proved that the Bible says it's ok. It is ok!


We have examples of someone who did the EXACT thing Constantine did and God didn't like it.



I disagree with your example. I'm sorry, but I really don't see a connection. If I was mean or rude in my response to you, please let me know.

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