Ancient Christian Witness

Ben,

over at Arminian Perspectives has been doing a series about "perseverence" in Hebrews chapter 10.


Part 6:

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-6-hebrews-1026-30/

Part 7:

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-7-who-is-sanctified-in-hebrews-1029



Part 8:

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-8-what-kind-of-sanctification-is-being-described-in-hebrews-1029/






JNORM888

Originally Posted by Crossover
PhatcatholicRomans 11 prooves my point, because those who
were cast out werent even believers to begin with

How can you say that? The image is one of branches on a tree, like actually on the tree. A branch can't be broken off unless it was connected to the tree to begin with. Also, vs. 23 says that God has the power to graft them in again. In other words, you can be grafted in, fall, and then be grafted in a second time. Being grafted in "again" means two separate moments of being connected to the tree. Verse 23 would make no sense if the branch was never connected to the tree to begin with, or if once it was connected it never fell off. See what I mean?

Quote:
Both 1 Corinthians scripts have nothing to do wih salvation.

They most certainly do! In 1 Cor 9, the race is life and the prize is salvation. Thus, life is seen here as requiring perseverence, running the race to the end. But, there's no need for perseverence in the OSAS worldview. Also, look at what Paul says vs. 26-27. Does that sound like a man who believes in an assurance of salvation? Of course not! Even Paul, a man of great wisdom and holiness, knew that he could lose the race if he wasn't careful (note that when you are disqualified from a race you are inelligible to receive the prize).

As for 1 Cor 10, this is Paul's message to everyone who believes that his salvation is already secure. Take heed my friend, lest you fall. Why fear a fall if you have an assurance of salvation?

Quote:
The verse from Galations is telling those who think they are jstified
by the law are not jsutified because only faith justifies.

But, there's more to it than that. Notice he says to not submit "again" to a yoke of slavery. This means that they were once slaves, they aren't now, but there's the risk that they could become slaves again. This risk does not exist in the OSAS worldview. This passage also speaks of being "severed from Christ" and "falling away from grace." You can't do either one if once you're saved it's a done deal.

Quote:
Most of the ones from Hebrews we've already thouched on, the others
have no bearing on this convo.

It's amazing to me how you are able to just dismiss these passages with a wave of the hand. Read them closely my friend. They are damning to the OSAS position.

As for 1 Tim 4:1 and 1 Tim 5:15, do you think it's possible for an honest-to-goodness Christian to "depart from the faith," "give heed to deceitful spirits," "stray after Satan" and yet not lose his salvation? Paul is referring to actual Christians in the churches that Timothy is in charge of. Christians are doing these things, and they can fall away if they're not careful. 1 Tim 6:10 is another example.


Don't tell me, "Well they must not have been saved to begin with" b/c it doesn't hold. You can't "depart from the faith" unless you were of the faith to begin with. In vs. 6 Paul refers to them as "the brethren." They are his true brothers in Christ.


Heb 3:12 says that a christian can actually fall away from the living God. There's no room for that in OSAS


As for Heb 4, read verses 1-11 again. The previous chapter tells us what the author means by "the rest." He is quoting the Father's words in the OT regarding the Promised Land, which is for us symbolic of salvation. He is saying that some can enter into God's rest but then, by disobedience, fall from this rest. There's no room for that in OSAS.

As for Heb 6, I'm sorry, but anyone who has "been enlightened," "tasted the heavenly gift," is a "partaker of the Holy Spirit," and tasted the goodness and power of the word of God is saved as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how he couldn't be. They've tasted the heavenly gift for crying out loud. What do you think the "heavenly gift" is, a fruit basket? The people in question here were truly united to Christ and then they fell


Also, note that "apostacy" itself presupposes former membership. You can't fall away from something that you were never a part of. The author says that they must be restored to repentance "again." What is "restoration" but the return to a former state?


Heb 10 rejects OSAS as well. Look at it again:

Heb 10:38-39 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.


The righteous are shrinking back. Not the quasi-members of the Church, or the pretend or make-believe members of the Church. No, we are speaking here of the righteous. When you shrink back, you are destroyed (vs. 39). The righteous are shrinking back and being destroyed. There is simply no room for that in OSAS.

Quote:
James 5:19-20 is talking about falling into carnality. If it was
talking about a loss of salvation, then it would be a direct contradiction to
Hebrews 6, assuming hebrews 6 was talking about loss of salvation also.

Well, first of all, James 5 is talking about a loss of salvation b/c James says that wondering away from the faith equals death to the soul. "Whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death" (vs. 20). So, this passage is definitely relavent.

Now, it may appear that this passage contradicts Heb 6. After all, Hebrews says that any person who falls away cannot be brought back but James says that he can be. But, there is in fact no contradiction here. That's b/c apostasy is more pertinacious than falling into sin or false belief. Apostacy is a total repudiation of Christianity, not just a lapse in one particular area.

Apostasy also implies persistence and stubbornness. As long as someone willfully separates himself entirely from the Church and willfully keeps himself in that state, he cannot be saved. But, when this person who had previously separated himself entirely from the Church then has a conversion of heart or is compelled by his brother to return again to the Church, he will certainly be forgiven and reconciled. "A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise" (Psa 51:17).

Quote:
The first script from 2 PEter has nothing to do with loss of
salvation.

It honestly blows my mind how you can say that. Read the 9 verses leading up to vs. 10. Peter is referring to people who have "obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (vs. 1), to he who "was cleansed from his old sins" (vs. 9). Why warn them of a fall from this state if such a fall was not possible? Why bother "confirming your election" if your election is already secure? OSAS makes no sense in light of this passage.

Quote:
The second one is in the same boat as Hebrews 6, you can look back in
this convo to see what we've sadia bout that.

Peter specifically says that a person can "escape the defilements of the world" and then become entangled in them again (2 Pet 2:20). This escape can only take place when we are saved by the grace of God.


Furthermore, people can "know the way of righteousness" and then turn back from it. They truly knew it, not in some intellectual sense but in an experiential way. They knew it by experiencing it. You can't "turn back" from the direction you've been walking if you're not actually walking, or not walking foward.

Quote:
From 2 John, just read the verse right after that and you'll see what
I would have to say about that.

When John says, "Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God" he doesn't mean that the person never had God to begin with. He means that the person loses God as soon as he becomes unfaithful. All this verse does is prove my point b/c it shows that you can have God and then lose him. "Having God" is salvation, right? What else could it be that they have "worked for"? (vs. 8)

Quote:
Revelation 2...on the surface this would seem to proove your point.
But look a little deeper. Let's break this into parts.1. The command (repent).2.
The threat (or else I will remove you)See, the command is repent, and the threat
depends upon the filling of the command. If the command isnt filled, the threat
will be. BUT, you'll notice, that if the command isnt followed, then they were
never saved to start with, because if you never repent, you can never be saved.
So if they dont repend, they were never saved to start with.

Where does it say that? Nowhere does it say that they were never saved to begin with. If that were the case then they would not have a lampstand. Their lampstand is their salvation. When you fall and don't repent, God takes it away. You lose the salvation you once possessed. It's all very clear in this passage, and I think you know that b/c you can see how it proves my point.


Finally, you never responded to Rev 22, which I think is one of the clearest passages against OSAS. Look at what it says again:

Rev 22:19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

There's pretty much no way of getting around that one, from what I can tell. These people have a share in the tree life and God is taking it away. If that doesn't mean that they are losing their salvation, I don't know what does.

Pax Christi,phatcatholic

These were the links I couldn't post from Phat's links from HCR's theo board.


I don't know if this derails the conversation or not, but I wanted to provide some more verses that speak against OSAS:

Rom 11:20-23 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


1 Cor 10:6,12 Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did. 12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.


Gal 5:1,4 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


1 Tim 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan

Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.


Heb 4:6,11 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Heb 10:38-39 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.


Jas 5:19-20 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

2 Pet 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

2 Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward.

Rev 2:4-5 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 22:19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

This is a repost of a thread from a board that got deleted. I salvaged what I could.

Streetsermons asked:

http://streetsermonz.blogspot.com/

"A few weeks ago I heard an Elder whom I highly respect teach that it is
possible to lose your salvation. I personally believe that once God saves you,
you are sealed to the day of redemption and your name cannot be erased from the
Lamb's book of life. However, I wanted to start this thread and ask for Biblical
support of BOTH points of view. I assume most on this board believe once saved
always saved - and if you fall away you were never saved to begin with, as I
believe. Before I get into an in depth study I wanted to build with my fam on
the board and see what points you may have, backed up by the Word of course."

Doc spot added


1 John 3 ESV

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is
lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is
no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning
has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you.
Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

Doc Spot continued to say:
The KJV says that you cannot sin if you're born of God. There have been times that i gave my flesh an inch and it took a couple of light years from my walk, but i never turned back completely as the Bible says as a dog to his own vomit. From experience i can tell you that you can be under the misconception that you're saved because you have faith in God or you believe in God, His virgin birth, death, and ressurection. i'm speaking from personal experience that I spoke in tongues and was "slain in the spirit" as a unbeliever. i had a form of godliness (2 Tim 3)

No matter what statement of faith you take

No matter what superstar or backwoods pastor gave you the sinner's prayer

No matter how different you felt after hearing that song

You have to be born again. You have to be born of God. (John 3, I Peter 1)

In my observation of the churches of today and type of preaching that is done i've noticed these that speaking of salvation as being something you have to worked out is not popular (Phil 2).

So my answer is No you cannot lose your salvation. The desire should be knowing if you are.


Phat Catholic said:

"StreetSermonz....you may be interested in two posts I made in a thread from a while back. The first one (here) lists scripture passages that speak against OSAS. The second post (here) is my response to someone who didn't agree with the passages that I listed.I hope that helps.Pax Christi,phatcatholic"

The links won't work for the Theoboard was taken down. I assume he said the samething in his blog

the link to Phat's blog is

http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/



The Black Calvinist(who also goes by the name G.R.A.C.E. Preacha) said:

There really aren't any passages that say you can lose your salvation.

The problem is, most people who approach the Bible don't do so covenantally, so they misinterpret warning passages (which are real) as referring to only believers, when in fact, they are speaking to the visible community of faith, which is a mixed group (believers and unbelievers). The warning passages hold true for those who 'fall away' (seed that falls on the stony ground, sprouts up for a while, has no root in itself, eventually whithers), while they also serve as part of the means which God uses to keep those in the sheepfold persevering in faith (1 Peter 1:5, John 10:27-29).

'No one' includes you

The rest of folks who approach from some sort of covenantal framework but believe a true believer can lose their salvation, usually go to the other extreme and deny obvious passages like the last 2 listed. If the scriptures say 'no one' can snatch you out of God's hand, no one includes you. If the scrips say that true believers are kept by the power of God, then it can't be by your own strength and good deeds that you are 'staying saved'. Kept by God doesn't mean kept by God and me.

His website is

http://theologicallycorrect.com/



Streetsermons responded to black Calvinist:

"word, great points Doc and Kerry. My thoughts exactly. As you might suspect, Hebrews 6:4-6 was used - "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.""

Another point I heard is that if God is going to spew out the lukewarm saints out of His mouth, that means they were part of the Body. My point was, just because they are part of the physical body of Christ, doesn't mean they are part of the spiritual body and are saved. Many people will do signs and wonders, preach and teach, and even evangelize in the Name of Jesus, but that doesn't mean they are saved.

Also, if you are saved by grace and not by works, is it possible for a work to take away that salvation and bring you back into condemnation?Any other scriptural points?


shekinahsmoke said:

Ask Charo Washer.



I said:

One of the Arminian blog's I chat at was talking about this a couple months ago.

http://arminianperspectives.blogspot.com/


or to my blog
http://ancientchristiandefender.blog...chapter-6.html/

I edited my post for I originally gave three links. I gave two on here for one of the links was from the theoboard.


Black Calvinist's responce to my post:

Or.... you can just read your Bible.

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. (Hebrews 6:9, emphasis mine).The things mentioned in vv. 4-6 don't belong to salvation.Case proven. The Bible is its' own best interpreter.....

The problem is that some folks don't read more than a few verses and try to misformulate doctrine off of it.



My responce to Blackcalvinist:

The things that belong to salvation is "perseverence".

Meaning a continuance in all the things mentioned in verses 4-5 plus other things.

Hebrews 6:10

"10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have
shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want
each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your
hope sure."

Hebrews chapter 10 seems to be saying the samething

"23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is
faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and
good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of
doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day
approaching."

What was started in Hebrews chapter 6 verses 4-5 must last to the very end.



Ras said:

I haven't read any of the responses but I will next. But looking at Jesus' parables(Mark 4, Matt. 13?), I believe the Holy Spirit can work in a non believer (which we call fruit). But a true believer will continue to transfer into Christ image. And that spiritual growth differs from person to person (30, 60, 100)

Look at the parable of the sower, Mark 4. There was fruit (belief) and some growth. But when tribulation came, it proved they were not his. A believer will continue to grow despite tribulation. I think some sides just fail to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit can work in unsaved people. And bring growth. But a truly saved or as a tulip people like to use elected person will continue to grow.


RAS posted again:

"I believe in once elected always elected. But at the same time I do believe the Holy Spirit can work in the life of a non believer, which may appear that a person has lost their salvation. I've seen many people show spiritual fruit (and I don't believe that in all of them that this was their work to change themselves. In some cases it is human effort.)"


BlackCalvinist responded to RAS:

Exactly. Except, the unbeliever in these passages (matthew 13) doesn't bring forth FRUIT....he brings forth FOLIAGE (leaves....).

Think of it this way.... we see things growing out of a tree, we think "Oh, the tree is alive". Both leaves AND fruit grow out of a tree. But the unfruitful tree is not saved in any of these passages.

Speaking of trees (and I knew this would come in handy one day), my ex had a tree growing outside of her home. She and I started dating back in the late fall (right after Thanksgiving of 05'). Well, when the Spring hit, we started noticing leaves coming in on the other trees....except for this one.

Even some of the other 'slower' trees finally had a few shoots.

Nothing from "deadtree" as we called it.

Eventually, the HOA called it in and had it chopped and made into mulch.


"Deadtree" had grown pretty large. Apparently, it had leaves in the past (in fact, I remember leaves on it from the previous year). A few birds even made their home in it (as evidenced by the bird poop on my car many of the times I visited). Looked just like every other tree. Branches. I even saw the 'buds' where leaves were supposed to start growing in.

Spring cames, leaves never came. Early summer came, leaves never came.

Phil. 2:12-13 make it clear - we work because God works in us. We persevere because God keeps us and enables us to do so.

Not a hard issue.

Problem is, people make it a hard issue when they have issues with the concept of anyone else but themselves being the final determiner of their salvation (people either deny the exhaustive foreknowledge of God, make salvation dependent on something we would do in a hypothetical future, limit God, deny God's ability to keep folks, say that God values human free will above His own desire to save people, etc.....).

As complicated as some of these discussions get, they're really simple. It's when people choose to disbelieve for whatever reason, that it becomes a complicated issue.

Any child can understand "God keeps me from falling away from Him and gives me strength to stay with Him, He's changed my desires so that I now love good and hate evil and He's made it so I won't turn from Him (1 Peter 1, Phil. 2 and Jeremiah 32:40 respectively)".

The issue gets complicated when we begin to make excuses for our friends who may have 'spoke in tongues' beside us and we just KNEW they were Christians....now they claim atheism or something....

May the Lord continue to enlighten the eyes of His people to see more truth in this area.
Grace.



RAS responded back to Black Calvinist:

that's dope with the follage, leaves stuff. Never heard that before.




I responded with:


What about a tree that bore fruit and stopped? This is where the real disagreement is anyway.

John 15:6"

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries
up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are
burned."

So what about those who once "produced fruit" then stopped?



Rob said:


Please don't forget about the parable Jesus spoke of in Luke 12:42-48. Please consider verse 46. The Greek word for "servant" in this passage is indeed "duolos", check your lexicon. We can't say this was a servant who never was a servant.

Luke 12:42-48

42And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his
lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in
due season?
43Blessed is that servant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so
doing.
44In truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he
hath.

45But if that servant say in his heart, `My lord delayeth his coming,' and
shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be
drunken,

46the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder and will appoint
him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, who knew his lord's will and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not and committed things worthy of stripes, shall be
beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be
required; and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more.

RAS responed to me with:

"where does it say that they once produced fruit?"


Doc spot said:

It's speaking of dry branches not fruit. Dry wood burns better.


Black Calvinist responded to Rob with:

"Covenantally, all of Israel were servants of God, but all of Israel weren't saved, nor were they all considered to be saved. Servant doesn't denote salvation. It denotes covenant relationship and covenant responsibility, but not salvation. This goes back to the first convo we had on this topic when I asked you what a covenant was.....If a person gets 'covenant' wrong, they'll misread a lot of scripture....."


Street sermons asked another question:


"have another point.In Jesus' parable about the 10 virgins, 5 stored up oil and were prepared for the LORD's coming, the other 5 weren't. All 10 were described as virgins - living holy lives. Only 5 actually obeyed the Master's command (stored up oil) - the other 5 procrastinated, and when it came time to enter into the joy of the LORD, only those that were prepared were allowed in. So it seems as if we do have a choice. This goes back to a question of much debate on this board - is our freewill greater than God's sovereignity? It is obvious that we can only obtain our salvation by faith. We can only persevere by faith. Faith is a gift. So does God force His salvation upon us and therefore keep us? Or does He give us the opportunity to put the faith He gave us into action, and if we don't exercise that faith we won't receive the promise of eternal life? Would the latter then make faith a work?
(Vic PLEASE dont' erase this thread...)"



Black Calvinist responded to Streetsermon with:

Well, first I'd challenge your understanding of what the whole meaning of the virgins represents in this passage.

Jeremiah 32:40.

If faith is a gift, it's not something you do OR maintain.

Of course, if understood covenantally, it's not a major problem. All of the virgins were servants. They all had the same covenant responsibilities (get oil for your lamps). Five chose to, five did not. The result was the curses of the covenant falling upon those who disobeyed (the foolish virgins) and the blessings of the covenant falling upon those who obeyed (the wise ones).

This passage doesn't deal with regeneration, election, predestination or directly with perseverance. It deals with the responsibilities of the visible (covenant) people of God toward Him and the results of their disobedience.

Remember - the visible church (covenant people of God) is a mixed multitude - believers and non-believers (see Matt. 13 for the parable of the tares and the wheat). They will be separated at the end of time, but for now, both live up and grow up together.

If faith is a gift, it's not something you do OR maintain.



I responded back to RAS with

It is implied in alot of places.

Revelation 2:3-5

"3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown
weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you
did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand
from its place."

These christians did persevere, and endured hardships in Jesus Name, yet they have forsaken their first love. Jesus told them to repent or else He would remove their lampstand from them.

We know from scripture that God will enforce His warnings. As seen from Genesis 2:17

Genesis 2:17

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

It is also implied in Galatians


Galatians 5:3-5

"3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be
circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to
be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from
grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for
which we hope."

if they never produced fruit before then why would Paul say they "were running a good race"?

Galatians 5:7

"You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept
you from obeying the truth?"

I would like to ask you a question. Are the fruits of the Spirit visible in a persons life?



Shortly after I posted this the whole theo board was shut down. I answered some of the other comments on other posts in my blog.




JNORM888

In American Protestantism there is a fued between O.S.A.S.(once saved always saved) and P.O.T.S.(Perseverence of the Saints)

O.S.A.S.ers believe in what is called "Carnal christianity". If you listen to alot of radio preachers you will hear the term "the carnal christian" alot. I'm not sure where this began. I know that John Calvin's camp accused Martin Luther's camp of supporting a carnal form of christianity.

But Martin Luther believed that one can loose their salvation if they lost faith.....and most of the once saved always saved camp doesn't believe that. What they do hold in common with Luther is the idea that works will not cause anyone to loose their salvation. Works in the form of sins....like killing, murder, adultry....all the sins of the flesh.......ect.

If this is the case then it seems that they use this as an excuse of being secure in their sins. OR being secure while in a sinful state. And this is why alot of people are able to thank God on Music Award shows.

The people that stress this will focus on the idea that Jesus is only "Our Savior".......not "our Lord". The P.O.T.S. are the ones who believe that Jesus is not only our Savior, but also our Lord as well. And they accuse the O.S.A.S. folks as being Antinomians. They stress that a True Christian will produce good works because the seed of God is in them. And if you are not producing good fruit then you should question if you are even a christian.

The whole idea of Lordship salvation is:

if Jesus is your Lord then you will obey Him. Jesus did say that all those who hear His voice will follow Him. So if Jesus is not your Lord then how can you hear His voice?


I was raised under the Once Saved Always saved banner. And from my experience alot of Baptists fall under O.S.A.S. Where as alot of Prespyterians would fall under P.O.T.S.


In the Arminian camp, John Wesly....after his Aldersgate experience accused the Moravians of Antinomianism because of their low standards of Holiness and laxity in how they lived.

Modern Weslyians accuse the free will Baptists of supporting Antinomianism.......eventhough both camps believe that one can loose their salvation. This is because the Free will Baptists follow Martin Luther in the sense that they believe that one can only loose their salvation when they loose faith.......not when they produce the fruits of the flesh.

However, the free will Baptists see themselves as Reformed Arminians so how they are able to balance between Calvin and Luther in this regard is beyond my knowing. The Weslyians are divided on the issue of when a person looses salvation. All conservative Weslyians believe that one can loose their salvation when one looses faith. But they are divided in the area of bad fruit. Some believe that one looses their salvation when their is a "continual or habitual pruduction of bad fruit" where as others believe it to be any single production of bad fruit.


At the beginning of this thread I wanted to say that it was a fued among those who tought "Unconditional Eternal Security" but that wouldn't be accurate because alot of O.S.A.S. people believe in conditions. They just feel that after you are saved there are no conditions in which one can loose it. Where as those who hold to P.O.T.S. would believe that their are no human conditions in which God saves you as well as no human conditions in which one can loose it





The Ancient christians believed one could fall from grace and ultimately loose ones salvation. They also believed that Jesus is not only our Savior but Our Lord as well.





JNORM888

One of the differences between Augustinianism and Calvinism deals with the last point of the T.U.L.I.P.

The "P" or Perseverence of the Saints.

Saint Augustine's early works would be more in line with semi-pelagianism and Arminianism, whereas his later works would seem more in line with Calvinism.

Some Calvinists would claim that Augustinianism was nothing more than Calvinism before the time of John Calvin. But that's not 100%ly true.


It is said that in Augustinian theology there is an "election" to grace(initial salvation) and an "election" to glory(final salvation).


In other words. ....all of the "regenerate" are elected to grace, but not all of the "regenerate" will be elected to glory.


I might be wrong but I think this is what Saint Augustine tought.


On the otherhand you have Calvinism and this is where Calvinism breaks from Augustinianism.


In Calvinism you have a theology called "the golden chain" or "the unbroken chain". And according to them the last set of verses found in Romans chapter 8 supports the idea that everyone who is elected to grace(initial salvation) will be elected to glory(final salvation).


In other words. All of the regenerated who are elected to grace will also be elected to glory.


And this is why Calvinists and psuedo-calvinists are not able to understand John chapter 15, Romans chapter 11, and Hebrews chapter 6 the way everybody else does.

They are always reading the "golden chain" into these chapters.





ICXC JNORM888

This is a short exposition of Hebrews chapter 6

The community spoken of in Hebrews were believers. We can see this in Hebrews chapter 2

"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."


The author includes himself as one of the ones who can drift away. So to assume that the people spoken of in chapter 6 as nonbelievers would be false for one would have to make the author of the book of Hebrews a nonbeliever as well.

It is most likely that they were Jewish believers.

Hebrews chapter 6 verses 1 & 2 (NKJV)
"1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."


The six foundations found in the first couple verses of Hebrews chapter six, seems to be the same as the milk found in the previous chapter.


From verses 1 and 2 we see that the milk/elementary principles are:

1.) foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death

2.) foundation of faith in God

3.) foundation of instruction about baptisms

4.) foundation of the laying on of hands

5.) foundation of the resurrection of the dead

6.) foundation of the eternal judgment



1.) foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death

John talks about the samething when it comes to things that lead to death

1 John 5:16-17
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."


It seems to me that the "elementary" things Hebrews was talking about had to do with the "initial" things of salvation......Like Repentence.



2.) foundation of faith in God

This letter seemed to be sent to a group of believing Jews so they already had the Gospel preached to them.


Romans chapter 10 shows us how faith comes about.

"14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!""

and verse 17

"17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."


It seems to me that the "elementary" things Hebrews was talking about had to do with the "initial" things of Salvation......Like faith




3.) foundation of instruction about baptisms

This seems to be talking about Water Baptism. Something that Christians go through......even believing Jews

As Prophesied in the Old Testament

Ezekiel 36:25-27
"25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

And as seen in the New Testament

John 3:5
"5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."


Romans chapter 6:3-5

"3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,"

and

Colossians 2:11-13
"11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,"



Water Baptism was seen as the normal way in which the blood of Christ gets on a person. This is how we are supernaturally and mysteriously united with Christ.

Thus it seems that the text is talking about another initial aspect of salvation.



4.) foundation of the laying on of hands

This seems to be talking about the christian practice of "Confirmation/Chrismation". We see this in Acts where the Apostle layed hands on new gentile believers so that they too can receive the Holy Spirit like they did. Thus this seem like post cross and post ressurection to me.

Acts chapter 8
"16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Acts chapter 9
"And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts chapter 19
"And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."


The laying on of hands was the norm in which people were Baptized with the Holy Spirit. This is the second half of John 3:5

"5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."




5.) foundation of the resurrection of the dead


We see Paul preaching this in Acts chapter 17 to pagans. So This too seems like a christian thing in regards to what is tought to those who are new christians or soon to be christian.

Acts chapter 17
""30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.""




6.) foundation of the eternal judgment


This seems to be a christian thing as well. Something new christians are tought....or soon to be christians are tought.So this seems to be am immature christian community not a mature one. This is what it seems like from reading chapter 5 to the first two verses of Chapter 6.





Hebrews chapter 6 verse 4 (NKJV)

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit"


This enlightened is probably talking about Baptism, but it could also be talking about a pre or post enlightening as well. As found in Cor chapter 4 and Eph chapter 4.

The Heavenly gift is most likely talking about Communion, or the Lord's table.

Being partakers of the Holy Spirit is talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit. One of the Epistles of Peter talks about being partakers of the Divine Nature.

2 Peter 1:4
"Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."



Hebrews chapter 6 verse 5 (NASB)

"5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,"

Before the invention of the printing press the Word of God was read and people heard it. Infact, good portions of it was memorized. The word of God was presented in the Liturgy itself when the believers gathered to Worship.

The powers of the age to come is still unknown to me at this time. I will have to update this at a later time.

However, with that said to assume that "tasted" means not being real in the first place is false. It's false because one would have to say the samething about the Lord Himself.

For scripture says:

Hebrews 2:9
""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.""

Did Jesus really die? If so then the context of "Taste" in the Book of Hebrews really means something actually experienced.




Hebrews chapter 6 verse 6 (NASB)

"6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."


The "if" clause is not in the Majority text. It is said that Theodore Beza added the "if" in his Text.

Knowing this we know that some did fall away. It wasn't "hypothetical"!


Now what was the difference between those that fell away and those that didn't?

They both repented, believed, was Baptized, had hands layed on them so that they could be filled with the Holy Spirit. They both had communion. They both heard the Word of God and they both were tought about Judgment and the resurrection of the dead.

Well Hebrews tells us in verses 9 to 12

Hebrews chapter 6 verses 9 to 12

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."


What are the things accompaning salvation? It is their work and Love in ministering to the Saints.
The difference was "diligence", the difference was "perseverance". The difference was "unwavering faith and patience".


That was the difference. This is backed up by Hebrews chapter 10 in which a lack of fellowshipping together seems to be deadly to ones faith.

Hebrews 10:24-26

"24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left",





INLOVE Jnorm