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Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Lordship salvation vs nonLordship salvation view

In American Protestantism there is a fued between O.S.A.S.(once saved always saved) and P.O.T.S.(Perseverence of the Saints)

O.S.A.S.ers believe in what is called "Carnal christianity". If you listen to alot of radio preachers you will hear the term "the carnal christian" alot. I'm not sure where this began. I know that John Calvin's camp accused Martin Luther's camp of supporting a carnal form of christianity.

But Martin Luther believed that one can loose their salvation if they lost faith.....and most of the once saved always saved camp doesn't believe that. What they do hold in common with Luther is the idea that works will not cause anyone to loose their salvation. Works in the form of killing, murder, adultry....all the sins of the flesh.......ect.

If this is the case then it seems that they use this as an excuse of being secure in their sins. OR being secure while in a sinful state. And this is why alot of people are able to thank God on Music Award shows.

The people that stress this will focus on the idea that Jesus is only "Our Savior".......not "our Lord". The P.O.T.S. are the ones who believe that Jesus is not only our Savior, but also our Lord as well. And they accuse the O.S.A.S. folks as being Antinomians. They stress that a True Christian will produce good works because the seed of God is in them. And if you are not producing good fruit then you should question if you are even a christian.

The whole idea of Lordship salvation is:

if Jesus is your Lord then you will obey Him. Jesus did say that all those who hear His voice will follow Him. So if Jesus is not your Lord then how can you hear His voice?

I was raised under the Once Saved Always saved banner. And from my experience alot of Baptists fall under O.S.A.S. Where as alot of Prespyterians would fall under P.O.T.S.

In the Arminian camp, John Wesly....after his Aldersgate experience accused the Moravians of Antinomianism because of their low standards of Holiness and laxity in how they lived.

Modern Weslyians accuse the free will Baptists of supporting Antinomianism.......eventhough both camps believe that one can loose their salvation. This is because the Free will Baptists follow Martin Luther in the sense that they believe that one can only loose their salvation when they loose faith.......not when they produce the fruits of the flesh.

However, the free will Baptists see themselves as Reformed Arminians so how they are able to balance between Calvin and Luther in this regard is beyond my knowing. The Weslyians are divided on the issue of when a person looses salvation. All conservative Weslyians believe that one can loose their salvation when one looses faith. But they are divided in the area of bad fruit. Some believe that one looses their salvation when their is a "continual or habitual pruduction of bad fruit" where as others believe it to be any single production of bad fruit.

At the beginning of this thread I wanted to say that it was a fued among those who tought "Unconditional Eternal Security" but that wouldn't be accurate because alot of O.S.A.S. people believe in conditions. They just feel that after you are saved there are no conditions in which one can loose it. Where as those who hold to P.O.T.S. would believe that their are no human conditions in which God saves you as well as no human conditions in which one can loose it

The Ancient christians believed one could fall from grace and ultimately loose ones salvation. They also believed that Jesus is not only our Savior but Our Lord as well.



Tammy said...

Some ancient Jews (pre-Jesus Judiasm) believed you could lose your salvation. This is where the concept of “self-righteousness” came from. The “law” began with the 10 commandments and was compounded through the years especially by the Pharisees who began to add their own laws. Jesus called them “vipers” for keeping people from coming to God because of all their “rules” which no one, not even the Pharisees could keep… thus the sacrificing of animals. However, God judged humans eternal resting place by the condition of their hearts toward Him, not their actions, else Adam and Eve would have doomed us all.
The law was given to show us that we were in need of a Savior because at best, our "righteousness was as filthy rags" to God. Had we thought we could earn our way, we would be boastful and proud (example: Pharisees then, belief in human divinity now) not accepting that we were sinful beings who could NEVER do what was required to reconcile us to our Holy Creator. This is what defines the word Carnal...the idea that humans are not divine and are born with free will and a sin nature and cannot live up to the holiness and perfection required to reconcile with a holy perfect God. This concept is relevant throughout scripture (OT &NT). It began with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden.
The Gentiles, brought into the church after Jesus, were saved by believing in Jesus, not by following a law which they never heard before. Paul explains that we are all children of Abraham who "believed and it was credited to him as righteousness". That is why Abraham is the Father of Christians.
The New Covenant was made evident when Jesus Christ came to earth and died for our sins. This plan of salvation was devised in the beginning. All things were created by and through the Word (Jesus, John 1:1) so that they could be saved and reconciled by that same Word. True love requires free will, but free will opens the door for sin which is evident from the first humans created.
Read Paul's books, especially the book of Romans. He is the ultimate authority for this subject. The apostles, especially Paul, Peter and James, were responsible for spreading this "Good News" that the price for sin had been fully paid by Jesus and that salvation was "a gift of God lest any man should boast".
Eph 2:4-10
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
When you truly believe in the sacrifice of the Creator to reconcile Himself to His Creation, disobedience is not your intention for accepting this Grace.
Those who believe in this doctrine also believe as Paul states in Romans 6, that this is not a ticket to sin for free, it is Jesus taking our yoke of sin upon Himself. A Christian who has truly accepted that Jesus was God’s Son who came and died for their sins does not begin their Christian walk trying to get away with what they can. They realize the sacrifice and accept that they are sinners and receive the grace of God. This creates the "Attitude of Gratitude".
Eventually, we will sin and may continue for some time in sin, however, God has consequences for our actions and just as parents discipline their children, He disciplines his own especially when they choose willfull disobedience.
There is no reaping without sowing. Those who belong to the Lord reap consequences here on earth. Those who don't will reap them when they meet their maker.
The point is that FAITH is evident in this belief in God’s plan for salvation through His only Son, Jesus Christ, not in works.
THIS and THIS ALONE is the criteria for salvation.
If one TRULY accepts the Son of God as their Saviour, they CANNOT lose so great a salvation as they did nothing to gain it in the first place, it is truly a GIFT paid for by GRACE through Jesus Christ and at some point, due to this AMAZING GRACE, believers truly will be conformed to the image of their LORD AND SAVIOUR Jesus Christ. Some are slow learners, “babes in Christ” when they ought to be ready for meat, but they are still saved. ALL Christians believe in the Lordship of Jesus. I am not sure where you heard that. That is not doctrine for any Bible preaching church that I am aware of…
Rom 6:23-7:1
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Tammy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jnorm said...

Tammy, do you have any "data"/"evidence" that would support the idea that the terms "self righteous" and "loosing ones salvation" came from some ancient Jews in (pre-Jesus judiasm)?

1.) Have you read the book of Ezekiel? The idea that someone can loose their salvation is supported in both the Old and New Testaments.

2.) HAve you read Hebrews chapter 6? Hebrews chapter 10? Romans chapter 11? John chapter 15?

3.) Are you sure that scripture says that God will only judge the conditions of our hearts towards Him?

4.) I thought our thoughts, words, and deeds will be judged.

5.) True Faith permeates our thoughts, words, and deeds.

6.) What does the book of James say about true Faith?

7.) Adam and Eve have doomed us all. We all die because of Adam and Eve. We are all born seperated from God because of Adam and Eve.

8.) The Pharisees were empty on the inside. They were role playing in order to please men.

9.) Galations chapter 5 or 6 defines the word carnal. Asw ell as 1st Corinthians.

10.) The BIBLE says we were made in the IMAGE of God.
This isn't something we have. This is something we are.

11.) The gentiles were engrafted by faith in Christ. And this Faith is seen not by words only, but by words and deeds.
Or else you don't have true faith. The BIBLE says we are saved unto "good works". IF you claim to be saved and are not producing good fruit then all you have are "words". All you have is role playing...acting....and that is what the Pharisees were doing.

The Pharisees didn't have Power, and christians who "only" talk the talk should ask God for power to walk the walk.

If we are not walking the walk then we don't have true faith. ....Dispite the words of faith coming out of one's mouth. Those words are dead without fruit.
The fruits of faith is what makes faith speaking a "living" faith.

12.) I reject the idea that Paul is the ultimate authority on this subject. In all things Jesus is the ultimate authority on every subject.
But just so you know.....I do read the book of Romans. I just think you have a false interpretation of it.

Thanks for your post. I disagree with the Carnal christian doctrine. Back when i was Baptist I believed in Once saved always saved. I even was into Hank Hannegraff. But I had no peace. No peace in my heart. And I was tired of going from alter call to alter call. Wether for a rededication or for receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I was tired of saying the sinners prayer while driving listenning to some radio preacher.

I grew tired I waving my hands up in the air while watching T.V. preachers give the sinners prayer.

The carnal christian doctrine is false. It has no power, and it doesn't provide any either.

IT is make believe christianity. make believe union with christ.

I grew tired of the make believe. I need real union with Jesus. I need the real power of Christ.


Jnorm said...

All christians don't believe in the Lordship of Jesus.

I know alot of Baptists that don't.

Maybe in time you will understand the difference between O.S.A.S. and P.O.T.S.


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