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Saturday, July 26, 2008

The Suffering Messiah

In the podcast "Faith and Philosophy - Reflections on Orthodoxy and Culture"


Clark Carlton talks about a modern archeological discovery. As seen here:
"A recent archeological discovery is in the news and Clark is more fascinated with the reactions of people than the discovery itself."



The Mp3:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/carlton/fap_2008-07-26.mp3



JNORM888

From Classic Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy


This is from the "Illumined heart" podcast. John Maddex is interviewed. I could be wrong, but I think he was the one who started "Ancientfaithradio". The podcast traces his life journy starting with his Dad's involvment in christian radio. And from there he was able to work for a Moody Radio station, and eventually "focus on the family" with James Dobson, he later left there to return back to moody. Where he was over several moody radio stations in the midwest.

He also talks about how he eventually became a 5 point Calvinist while working for moody. Some years later he became Orthodox and started Ancient Faith radio.




From the website:
"In this encore presentation of The Illumined Heart, hear the story of John Maddex who, along with his wife Tonya, found the Orthodox Church after nearly 40 years in Evangelical Christian radio."




The Mp3:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/illuminedheart/ih_maddex_encore.mp3



JNORM888
Friday, July 25, 2008

blog testing

This is the Blog readability test. I first saw it on "energetic procession"


blog readability test

TV Reviews








JNORM888

Practical applications

In the Podcast "Generation Orthodox" Fr. John, his wife Deborah, Turbo, and Matt talk about some of the practical applications of Orthodoxy.


As seen from the webpage:
"This week Fr. John Tomasi and his wife Deborah join Generation Orthodox. Fr. John shares his vision for encouraging a house of industry type of life. This podcast includes practical applications of the Orthodox Christian faith and tips for being more like our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jacob, Turbo, Matt and Calee join in the conversation"




The mp3:
http://iconnewmedianetwork.com/mp3/go/GEN-O-Fr-John-t.mp3




JNORM888

The genuine tradition of Apostolic doctrine

Polycarpus (1) bp. of Smyrna, one of the most prominent figures in the church of the 2nd cent. He owes this prominence less to intellectual ability, which does not appear to have been pre-eminent, than to the influence gained by a consistent and unusually long life. Born some 30 years before the end of the 1st cent., and rasied to the episcopate apparently in early manhood, he held his office to the age of 86 or more. He claimed to have known at least one apostle and must in early life have met many who could tell things they had heard from actual disciples of our Lord. The younger generation, into which he lived on, naturally recognized him as a peculiarly trustworthy source of information concerning the first age of the Church. During the later years of his life Gnostic speculation had become very active and many things unknown to the faith of ordinary Christians were put forth as derived by secret traditions from the Apostles. Thus a high value was attached to the witness Polycarp could give as to the genuine tradition of apostolic doctrine, his testimony condemning as offensive novelties the figments of the heretical teachers. Irenaeus states (iii.3) that on Polycarp's visit to Rome his testimony converted many disciples of Marcion and Valentinus. Polycarp crowned his other services to the church by a glorious martyrdom." [1]





JNORM888

[1] page 846 from the book "A Dictionary of Early Christian Biography: A Reference Guide to over 800 Christian men and women, Heretics, and Sects of the first six centuries" edited by Henry Wace & William C. Piercy. Originally published in London 1911 by John Murray, republished by Hendrickson publishers 1999

The Regula Fidei

"Tradition was in the early church, first of all, a hermeneutical principle and method. Scripture could be rightly and fully understood and assessed only in the light and in the context of the living apostolic tradition, which was an integral factor of Christian existence.
This was so, of course, not because tradition could add anything to what has been manifested in theScripture, but because it provided that living context, the comprehensive perspective, in which alone the true intention and the total design of the Holy Writ, of divine revelation itself, could be detected and grasped. The truth was, according to Irenaeus, a "well-grounded system," a corpus, a "harmonious melody." This harmony could be grasped only by the insight of faith. Indeed, tradition was not just a transmission of inherited doctrine in a Judiac manner, but continuous life in the truth.
It was not a fixed core or complex of binding propositions, but an insight into the meaning and impact of revelatory events, of the revelation of the God who acts. And this was determinative in the field of biblical exegesis. George Prestige has well put it: "The voice of the Bible could be plainly heard only if its text were interpreted broadly and rationally, in accordance with the apostolic creed and the evidence of the historical practice of Christendom. It was the heretics that relied on isolated texts, and the Catholics who paid more attention on the whole to scriptural principles."
Summarizing her careful analysis of the use of tradition in the early church, Ellen Flesseman-van Leer has written: "Scripture without interpretation is not Scripture at all; the moment it is used and becomes alive it is always interpreted Scripture," which is disclosed in the regula fidei. Thus this regula becomes, as it were, the controlling factor in the exegesis. "Real interpretation ofScripture is church preaching, is tradition."[1]





JNORM888
[1] pages 103-104 by George Florovsky, edited by Daniel B. Clendenin, in the book Eastern Orthodoc Theology: A contemporary reader

Person, Nature And Action

Ft. Thomas Hopko, in his podcast Speaking the Truth in Love.


Talks about the greek terms of "Person, Nature, and Action".

As seen from the website:

"As an epilogue to his series on the language of God, Fr. Tom explains these technical, theological, terms used by the Church."

The MP3:
http://audio.ancientfaith.com/hopko/stt_2008-07-24_pc.mp3










JNORM888
Wednesday, July 23, 2008

My rejoinder to Jason Engwer of Triablogue

This is my rejoinder to Jason Engwer of Triablogue



Jason said:
"Jnorm888, an Eastern Orthodox poster, has
been making some dubious, undocumented claims about the history of
premillennialism."



These are my personal oppinions. Not the view of the Church. And just because I refused to dig in my books and type for you my sources at your command, doesn't mean I never post my sources. I often do.


Jason said:
"He's argued that the apostles taught
contradictory views of eschatology, that premillennialism came from John,
whereas men like Paul and Mark taught a different eschatology."



This is your spin, to what I said. My view is that early christians from different regions didn't always have a 100% uniform "interpretation" of eschatology.

Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan seems to say something similar:

"If the teachings of the early church and of Jesus could simply be described as consistent eschatology, we could then trace the decline of such an eschatology as the primary factor in the establishment both of ecclesiastical structures and of dogmatic norms. Neither primative Christianity nor the church catholic was consitent in so single-minded a way, as each new bit of evidence or new study of old evidence makes clear. But once the dialectic of already/not yet is permitted to emerge from the texts, the magnitude of the change may become visible. It was nothing less than the decisive shift from the categories of cosmic drama to those of being, from the Revelation of St. John the Divine to the creed of the Council of Nicea."[1]




Jason said:
"He's claimed that the canonicity of
Revelation was rejected by most Christians for a while."


What's wrong with this claim? The Assyrian Church of the East(what some have traditionaly called Nestorian) still doesn't have it in their canon. They only have 22 books in their New Testament. They don't include 2nd Peter, 2nd John, 3rd John, Jude, & Revelation.

I could be wrong, but I think they broke away around the time of the 3rd Ecumenical Council. So they were in communion until about 431 A.D.

You can always go to one of their websites to look at the number of their new testament books.


Jason said:
"And he's claimed that a sixth-century
ecumenical council condemned premillennialism."


I was wrong about the 6th century. It was in the 4th.
The second Ecumenical council of 381 A.D. note 41, says:

note 41

""[41] Led astray by the words in ch. 20 of the Book of Revelation (v. 3 to 7), where it says that Satan was shut up and bound for a thousand years, and that the righteous who participated in the first resurrection reigned together with Christ as kings for a thousand years, many men have imagined that after the second advent and common judgment take place, the righteous are to reign here on the earth as kings for a thousand years together with Christ, and thereafter to ascend to heaven; and on this account they have been called millenarians or millennialists. There have been two battalions of millenarians. For some of them used to say that during those thousand years they are to enjoy every enjoyment, and bodily pleasure; these men were followers of Cerinthus, a pupil of Simon, in the first century, and the Marcionists in the second century of the Christian era. Others said that they were not to enjoy passionate pleasures, but rather intellectual pleasures befitting rational human beings, of whom the leader was Papias the bishop of Hierapolis (in Euseb. Eccl. Hist, book 3, ch. 34) and others. Hence it is evident that Apollinaris became such a millenarian of the first battalion, as is plain from what St. Basil the Great says (letter 332), and from what the Theologian says (Discourse 51), and from what Jerome says (Book 18 on Isaiah). On this account in refutation of this heresy this Council added to the Creed of the Nicene Council that statement, which it borrowed from the sentence which the Archangel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin, viz.: “and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Luke 1:33). As for the thousand years referred to by St. John, they are not to come to pass after the second advent of Christ; and the kingdom of the Lord is not describable in terms of years, nor food and drink, as St. Paul said (Rom. 14:17): but, on the contrary, a thousand years are to be understood, according to those versed in theology, to mean the interval of time extending from the first advent of Christ to the second, during which Satan was bound, according to the words of the Lord, saying, “Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out” (John 12:31). The first resurrection, by contrast, took place for justification of souls through mortification of infidelity and wickedness, concerning which Christ said “He that heareth my words, and believeth in him who sent me, hath life everlasting, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life” (John 5:24); and the Apostle said “If then ye be risen with Christ . . . set your mind on the things that are above” (Col. 3:1-2). And thereafter in this interval of time the reign of the righteous with Christ took place, being their union with Him through (i.e., by means of) the Holy Spirit, and the contemplation and enjoyment of His divine illumination, respecting which the Lord said, “Some of them that stand here shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power” (Mark 9:1)."




Jason said:
"Premillennialists like Justin Martyr and
Irenaeus lived in multiple locations, so how does Jnorm know where they acquired
their premillennialism, and how does he know that such men had the role he
claims they had in spreading premillennialism?"


I don't know with 100% certainty that Saint Justin Martry got it in Ashia minor. It is true, that he did live in alot of places. It is my speculation that he picked it up while living in the East. For that is where the view most likely came from.

On the otherhand, it is said that Saint Irenaeus was a disciple of Saint Polycarp, who was a disciple of Saint John. And it is also said that Saint Papias was friends with Saint John. Saint Papias is mostly the one that people point the finger at. So I am pointing the finger at him too.

So Saint Irenaeus seems to have come from that line of Tradition. He was a Native of Ashia Minor

"Very little is known of his personal history except that he was a native of Asia Minor;" [2]

And in regards to the role they played in spreading the view. The view was in their writtings, and other people during their time as well as after their time, read their works.


Jason said:
"Here are some examples of ante-Nicene
sources who advocated premillennialism while living outside of Asia Minor:

Pseudo-Barnabas (The Epistle Of Barnabas, 15)
Justin Martyr
(Dialogue With Trypho, 80)
Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 5:28:3, 5:33:2-4)
Tertullian (Against Marcion, 3:24)
Hippolytus (On Daniel, 2:4)
Cyprian (section 2 in the preface and chapter 11 in Treatise 11, On the
Exhortation to Martyrdom)
Nepos (Eusebius, Church History, 7:24)
Commodianus (Writings, 44)
Victorinus (On The Creation Of The World)
Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 7:14"




I don't think you can put "The Epistle Of Barnabas" 100%ly in the pre-mill camp. He talks about 6 days equaling six thousand years, but just like in the book of Genesis, the 7nth day doesn't have a "time limit" on it.

He doesn't say that the 7nth day will last for a thousand years. Nor does he say that for the 8th day.

As seen in chapter 15:
as seen here

"Barnabas 15:1
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten
Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And
ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a
pure heart.

Barnabas 15:2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then
I will bestow My mercy upon them.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.


Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

Barnabas 15:6
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands
and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow
the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone
utterly astray.

Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens."


This is why I didn't mention him.

And as far as where he was from....well that's mostly speculation.

As seen from the intro to the Epistle of Barnabas edited by Michael W. Holmes,

He says on page 373:

"A lack of information renders difficult any determination regarding location. Nevertheless, Barnabas is widely thought to have originated in Alexandria in view of its numerous affinities to have originated in Alexandria in view of its numerous affinities in hermeneutical approach and style with Alexandria Judaism and Christianity and because its earliest witness is Clement of Alexandria (who accorded it the same authority as the Catholic Epistles). It appears to have been written after the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70 (16.3-5) but before the city was rebuilt by Hadrian following the revolt of AD 132-135. Within these limits it is difficult to be any more precise."[7]

We really don't know where he was from, but the majority view is Alexandria, but like I said before. You can't really put him in the chilism camp. And that is why I never included him.

Also in regards to the Apostolic church Father 1st Clement. He seems to have an "amill" view When he asserts that Christ reigns right now over his enemies. He doesn't assert a future 1,000 year period.
as seen here

""CHAPTER 36

36:1 This is the way, beloved, in which we found our salvation; even Jesus Christ, the high priest of our oblations, the champion and defender of our weakness.

36:2 Through him we look steadfastly to the heights of the heavens; through him we behold, as in a glass, the immaculate and lofty countenance of God the Father; through him the eyes of our heart were opened; through him our foolish and darkened understanding springeth up again to his marvellous light; through him the Lord hath willed us to taste of immortal knowledge; who, being the brightness of his glory, is so far better than the angels, as he hath, by inheritance, obtained a more excellent name than they.

36:3 For it is thus written: Who maketh his angels spirits, his ministers a flame of fire.

36:4 But of his Son the Lord hath thus said: Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the world for thy possession.

36:5 And, again, he saith unto him: Sit on my right hand until I make thy enemies thy footstool.

36:6 Who then are the enemies? Even the wicked, and they who resist the will of God."



Plus J. Pelikan seems to show that it wasn't the only view.


"But there is striking evidence not only that the mellenarian hope continued in the Church after the Apostolic age, but also that, probably from the beginning, it stood in tension with other descriptions of the reign of Christ, which were not as privy to the details of the timetable for this reign. Although he himself entertained the expectation that Jerusalem would be rebuilt and that the saints of both the Old and New Testament eras would share with Christ in the joys of the new age, Justin admitted that there were other christian believers, no less pious and orthodox than he, who did not have such an expectation. It would seem that very early in the post-apostolic era millenarianism was regarded as a mark neither of orthodoxy nor of heresy, but as one permissible opinion among others within the range of permissible opinions. Although its terminus a quo is set very early, its terminus ad quem is much more diffucult to fix, Origen's polemics against millenarianism recounted the exegesis of the literalists on the various promises concerning the Kingdom of Christ, but concluded that such an interpretation was "unworthy of the divine promises";""[8]





Elsewhere Jason said:
" The apostle John taught
premillennialism, but he was wrong. The Christians in Asia Minor "had a little
more detail about end time views that other regions didn't have. And they lost
the fight". Apparently, they were mistaken because they accepted the "details"
John gave them. The apostle led them astray."



You are putting words in my mouth. This is what I said:

""only the christians from Ashia Minor were mostly PM [premillennial]. Ashia minor is where Saint John mostly lived and died, and so the Apostolic Tradition that came from his region mostly held on to 'Chilism'.""

Where in that quote did I say that Saint John tought premill? I was very careful not to say that. It is you who are making that connection from some of my statements.

I said that the Apostolic tradition that came from his region, mostly held to it. You guys have been putting words in my mouth for the past few days. For three days you have been either putting words in my mouth, or gave a meaning I never gave. I came here a few days ago in regards to John Calvin's noval view of the Asiety of the Son, and you guys change topics to pound me over the head with premill.

"Probably the first indication that the prophecy in this chapter was being interpreted to mean an earthly reign of a thousand years following the return of Christ is that associated with the name of Papias. The only doctrinal position definitely attributed to him was the teaching, which he clamed to have derived from "unwritten tradition," that there will be a millennium following the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ is to be established physically on this earth."[3]


Jason also said:
" The book of Revelation, which the
large majority of professing Christians today accept as canonical, was rejected
as uncanonical by most of the earliest Christians, and the book taught a false
view of eschatology. It can be reinterpreted in an orthodox manner, but the book
was initially written with the intention of conveying false eschatology."



You are putting words in my mouth again. I never said any of that. In my rejoinder with King Neb, I said that the Canon was still in a state of flux. and that alot of christians didn't embrace the book of Revelation. I never said anything about the book of Revelations teaching a false view anywhere. How can I say that when the book itself doesn't even tell us how we should interpret that chapter.

I never said any of what you asserted.


Jason also said:
" The reason why men like Justin Martyr
and Irenaeus advocated premillennialism and spoke of it as if it was the
mainstream Christian view when they were outside of Asia Minor is because they
were at the forefront of spreading the belief to other regions. Apparently, men
like Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Cyprian accepted premillennialism under the
influence of men like Justin and Irenaeus. We aren't told why premillennialism
would be so widely accepted outside of Asia Minor if it had initially been
rejected in such places. We aren't told how Jnorm888 allegedly knows that the
doctrine was spread in the manner he suggests."



You are putting words in my mouth again.
Why should I say that about Saint Justin Martye when even he admited that not everyone agreed with his "eschatology", and yet you wonder why I wouldn't always answer your posts. Well for starters, you keep putting words in my mouth, and I didn't originally come here to talk about Premill. I came to talk about John Calvin & friends.


Jason said:
"The apostle John lived in Asia Minor, and
he wrote Revelation to some of the churches there. But premillennialism's origin
and prominence in that region don't imply some of the other conclusions Jnorm
has reached. Premillennialism is found early in Asia Minor (Papias), but also is
found early outside of Asia Minor (The Epistle Of Barnabas)."


I think I already answered why "The Epistle of Barnabas shouldn't be included.


Jason said:
"Premillennialism became much less popular
in later centuries, but it was widespread during the ante-Nicene era."


In your list you included "Lactantius & Victorinus ". Lactanius lived from 250 A.D. to about 325 A.D.

Victorinus lived around 304 A.D.

Well since you included these pre-millers. I think it's only fair that I include Eusebius who lived anywhere from 270 A.D. to about 340 A.D.

on page 129 Pelikan says:

"Eusebius was certainly speaking for a large body of theological opinion in the East when he called Papias's millenarianism "bizarre" and rather mythological." [4]



Jason said:
"A smaller number of mainstream ante-Nicene
sources opposed premillennialism, such as Origen and Dionysius of Alexandria,
but not with the sort of argumentation we're getting from Jnorm."


Pelikan seems to think that Origen reacted against Millenarianism with alot of vigor. And Dionysius of Alexandria at least knew of some who rejected the book.

"Some persons before our time have set this book aside and entirely rejected it. They have criticized it chapter by chapter, trying to demonstrate that it is without either sense or reason. They have also alleged that its title is false. For they have that John is the author.....they claim that non of the Apostles, nor indeed any of the Saints, nor any person belonging to the church, could be its author. Rather, they say that Cerinthus and the heretical sect founded by him.....attached that title to the book....However, I, for my part, could not venture to set this book aside. For there are many brethern who value it highly." Dionysius of Alexandria 262 A.D. [5]

And it seems that Dionysius of Alexandria didn't believe that Saint John was the author either.

"I do not deny that this person was called John, therefore, and that this was the writting of somone named John. I also acknowledge that it was the work of some holy and inspired man. However, I could not so easily acknowledge that the author was one of the aposltes. I cannot so easily acknowledge that it is the same person who wrote the Gospel that bears the title, "According to John," and the author of the general epistle. Rather, from the character of both those works and the forms of expression in them....I draw the conclusion that the authorship is not his. For the evangelist nowhere else affixes his name [to his works]. He never proclaims himself either in the Gospel or in the epislte. Dionydius of Alexandria (262 A.D.) [6]



Jason said:
"The tendency was to classify apostolic
books as scripture, so acceptance of the apostolic status of Revelation tends to
suggest acceptance of the book as scripture. I can document that tendency, and I
can give examples of the citation of Revelation as scripture by such sources, if
Jnorm wants to dispute the point."



There is no need to do that for I never disputed/fought againt the claim.






JNORM888

[1] page 131,[3] page 124,[4] page 129,[8] page 124 & 125 by Jaroslav Pelikan, in the book "The Christian tradition: A history of the Development of Doctrine" Vol 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)

[2] page 520, edited by Henry Wace & William C. Piercy, in the book "A dictionary of early Christian Biography"

[5] page 565,[6] page 565 edited by David Bercot, in the book "A dictionary of Early Christian beliefs"


[7] page 373, edited by Michael W. Holmes, in the book "The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations 3rd eition"

premill and the council that condemned it

I made a mistake on when "premill" was condemned. I knew it was condemned because I read an article on when it was rejected. But at the time of writting a rejoinder to King Neb, I said that it was condemned in the 6th century. The truth is, it was condemned at the second council, which was around 381 A.D.

As sen here

Note 41

""[41] Led astray by the words in ch. 20 of the Book of Revelation (v. 3 to 7), where it says that Satan was shut up and bound for a thousand years, and that the righteous who participated in the first resurrection reigned together with Christ as kings for a thousand years, many men have imagined that after the second advent and common judgment take place, the righteous are to reign here on the earth as kings for a thousand years together with Christ, and thereafter to ascend to heaven; and on this account they have been called millenarians or millennialists. There have been two battalions of millenarians. For some of them used to say that during those thousand years they are to enjoy every enjoyment, and bodily pleasure; these men were followers of Cerinthus, a pupil of Simon, in the first century, and the Marcionists in the second century of the Christian era. Others said that they were not to enjoy passionate pleasures, but rather intellectual pleasures befitting rational human beings, of whom the leader was Papias the bishop of Hierapolis (in Euseb. Eccl. Hist, book 3, ch. 34) and others. Hence it is evident that Apollinaris became such a millenarian of the first battalion, as is plain from what St. Basil the Great says (letter 332), and from what the Theologian says (Discourse 51), and from what Jerome says (Book 18 on Isaiah). On this account in refutation of this heresy this Council added to the Creed of the Nicene Council that statement, which it borrowed from the sentence which the Archangel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin, viz.: “and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Luke 1:33). As for the thousand years referred to by St. John, they are not to come to pass after the second advent of Christ; and the kingdom of the Lord is not describable in terms of years, nor food and drink, as St. Paul said (Rom. 14:17): but, on the contrary, a thousand years are to be understood, according to those versed in theology, to mean the interval of time extending from the first advent of Christ to the second, during which Satan was bound, according to the words of the Lord, saying, “Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out” (John 12:31). The first resurrection, by contrast, took place for justification of souls through mortification of infidelity and wickedness, concerning which Christ said “He that heareth my words, and believeth in him who sent me, hath life everlasting, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life” (John 5:24); and the Apostle said “If then ye be risen with Christ . . . set your mind on the things that are above” (Col. 3:1-2). And thereafter in this interval of time the reign of the righteous with Christ took place, being their union with Him through (i.e., by means of) the Holy Spirit, and the contemplation and enjoyment of His divine illumination, respecting which the Lord said, “Some of them that stand here shall not taste of death till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power” (Mark 9:1)."

I got into a little scuffle with Triablog, and they wanted me to post my sources. I appreciate the sparring, for I was able to see some of the weakness in my view. Most of the weakness had to do with my "absolute" type of language.

I have learned that in dealing with Triablog, I can't use such language, for they are too technical about precise wording and detail.

So the next time I deal with them, I will have to learn to be patient, and just take my time. Move slow. And think slower.

Now I will have to edit what I said over at HCR.




JNORM888
Tuesday, July 22, 2008

Saint Athanasius and the "scope of Faith"

"The situation did not change in the fourth century.
The dispute with the Arians, at least in its early phase, was centered in the
exegetical field. The Arians and their supporters produced an impressive array
of scriptural texts in the defense of their doctrinal position. They wanted to
restrict theological discussion to the biblical ground alone. Their claims had
to be met precisely on this ground. And their exegetical method, the mannor in
which they handled the text, was much the same as that of earlier dissenters.
They were operating with selected proof-texts and without much concern for the
total context of the revelation.

It was imperative for the Orthodox to appeal to the
mind of the church, to that faith which had been once delivered and then
devoutly kept. This was the main concern and the usual method of Athanasius. The
Arians quoted various passages from the scripture to substantiate their
contention that the Savior was a creature. In reply Athanasius invoked the rule
of faith. This was his usual argument: "Let us who possess τον σκοπν της πιστεως
(the scope of faith) restore the correct meaning (ορθην τηυ διανοιαν) of
what they have wrongly interpreted." Athanasius contended that the correct
interpretation of particular texts was possible only in the total perspective of
faith. "what they now allege from the Gospels they explain in an unsound
sense, as we may discover if we take in consideration τον σκοπον της καθ'
ημας τους χριστιανους πιστεως (the scope of the faith according to us
Christians), and read the scriptures using it (τον σκοπον)
(ωσπερ κανονι χρησαμενοι)." On the other hand, close attention must be given
also to the immediate context and setting of every particular phrase and
expression, and the exact intention of the writer must be carefully
identified.


Writing to Bishop Serapion on the topic of the Holy
Spirit, Athenasius contends again that the Arians ignored or missed "the scope
of the Divine Scripture" (μη ειδοντες τον σκοπον της Θεικας Γραφης). The
σκοπος was, in the language of Athanasius a close equivalent of what Irenaeus
used to denote as νποθεσις - the underlying idea, the true design, the
intended meaning. On the other hand, the word σκοπος was a habitual term in the
exegetical language of certain philosophical schools, especially Neoplatonism.
Exegesis played a great role in the philosophical endeavor of that time, and the
question of hermeneutical principle had to be raised. Jamblichos was, for one,
quite formal on this issue. One had to discover the main point, the basic theme,
of the whole treatise under examination, and to keep it in mind at all times.
Athanasius could well have been acquainted with the technical use of the
term. It was misleading, he contended, to quote isolated texts and passages,
disregarding the total intent of the Holy Writ. It is obviously inaccurate to
interpret Athanasius's use of the term σκοπος as "the general drift" of the
Scripture. The "scope" of the faith, or of the Scripture, is precisely the
credal core, which is condensed in the rule of faith, as maintained in the
church and "transmitted from fathers to fathers"; the Arians by contrast had "no
fathers" to support their opinions. As John Henry Newman has rightly observed,
Athanasius regarded the rule of faith as an ultimate principle of
interpretation, opposing the "ecclesiastical sense" (την εκκλησιαστικην
διανοιαν) to the private opinions of the heretics.

Time and again in his scrutiny of the Arian arguments,
Athanasius would summarize the basic tenets of the Christian faith before going
into the actual reexamination of the alleged proof-texts; in this way he
restored those texts to their proper perspective. H.E.W. Turner has described
this exegetical manner of Athanasius:


against the favorite Arian technique of pressing the
grammatical meaning of a text without regard either to the immediate context or
to the wider frame of reference in the teaching of the Bible as a whole, he
urges the need to take the general drift of the Church's Faith as a Canon of
interpretation. The Arians are blind to the wide sweep of Biblical theology and
therefore fail to take into sufficient account the context in which their
proof-texts are set. The sense of scripture must itself be taken as Scripture.
This has been taken by an argument from Tradition. Certainly not the intention
of Athanasius himself. For him it represents an appeal from exegesis drunk to
exegesis sober, from a myopic insistence upon the grammatical letter to the
meaning or intention (σκοπος, χαρακτηρ) of the Bible.


It seems that Professor Turner exaggerated the danger.
The argument was still strictly scriptural, and in principle Athanasius admitted
the sufficiency of the Scripture, sacred and inspired, for the defense of truth.
Scripture had to be interpreted, however, in the context of the living credal
tradition under the guidance or control of the rule of faith. This rule was in
no sense an extraneous authority which could be imposed on the Holy Writ. It was
the same apostolic preaching which was written down in the books of the New
Testament, but it was, as it were, this preaching in epitome. Athanasius writes
to Bishop Serapion: "Let us look from the beginning at that very tradition,
teaching, and faith of the catholic church which the Lord gave (εδωκεν), the
apostles preached (εκηρυςαν) and the Fathers preserved (εφυλαςαν). Upon this the
Church is founded. This passage is highly characteristic of Athanasius. The
three nouns actually coincide: παραδοσις (tradition) from Christ himself,
διδασκαλια(teaching) by the apostles, and πιστις (faith) of the catholic
church. And this is the foundation (θεμελιον) of the church- a sole and
single foundation. Scripture itself seems to be subsumed and included in this
tradition, coming, as it does, from the Lord. In the concluding chapter of his
first epistle to Serapion, Athanasius returns once more to the same point: "In
accordance with the apostolic faith delivered to us by tradition from the
Fathers, I have delivered the tradition, without inventing to us by tradition
from the Fathers, I have delivered the tradition, without inventing anything
extraneous to it. What I learned, that have I inscribed (ενεχαραςα), conformably
with the Holy Scripture. On another occasion Athanasius denoted the Scripture
itself an apostolic paradosis. It is characteristic that in the whole discussion
with the Arians no single reference was made to "traditions" in the plural. with
the Arians no single reference was made to "traditions" in the plural. The only
term or reference was always "tradition," indeed, the tradition, the apostolic
tradition, comprising the total and integral content of the apostolic preaching,
and summarized in the rule of faith. The unity and solidarity of this tradition
was the main and crucial point in the whole argument.


The Purpose of Exegesis and the Rule of
Worship"


The apeal to tradition was actually an appeal to the
mind of the church. It was assumed that the church had the knowledge and the
understanding of the truth, that is, the meaning of the revelation.
Accordingly, the church had both the competence and the authority to
proclaim the gospel and to interpret it. This did not imply that the church was
above the Scripture. She stood by the Scripture but, on the other hand, was not
bound by its letter. The ultimate purpose of exegesis and interpretation was to
elicit the meaning and the intent of the Holy Writ, or rather the
meaning of the revelation, of the Heilsgeschichte. The church had to preach
Christ, and not just the Scripture." [1]




[1] pages 104 to 107 by George Florovsky, edited by Daniel B. Clendenin, in the book Eastern Orthodox Theology: A contemporary reader



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